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 Post subject: Oluve: Messiah?
PostPosted: March 30th, 2010, 4:15 pm 
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I've been stuck recently trying to figure out if my white staff is like the Old Covenant (kind of like looking into it is like obeying the Law), and if that would require a New Covenant where God became man. From the beginning, I've seen looking into the staff as the Old Testament faith in the coming Messiah, so I don't know if that necessitates a human Messiah.

I asked myself: "Self, would God have to become a man in order to be completely understanding, perfectly loving, and in order to provide the ultimate and final sacrifice?"

In our case, I'm glad He did, but in a world of my own creation, where Gen. 3:15 doesn't exist (replaced with a different promise of salvation), I don't think God would have to become man. My world doesn't have the sacrificial system to be forgiven, but instead has a white staff made according to God's directions, which when looked into for salvation, cleanses one of their sins. (I'm not sure if it is like an Old Testament annual kind of cleansing, or a New Covenant once for all sins kind of cleansing).

Because of these differences, I'm not sure I even need a Messiah in my book. It's not that I don't love Jesus and want to do all things for His glory, but whenever I think of a Messiah in my books, I then feel constrained to not only having to preach Him, but also make the story very similar to His story. Even while brainstorming today on this solution, I ended up with a Messiah!

Here's my process of thought:

"If I can find a way to show how God could make a sacrifice without becoming a man, I could avoid having the Son of Man."

So, to do that, I'd have to make a similar sacrifice to the spirit of John 3:16 and Phil 2:5-8. (by "spirit" I mean the idea behind it without having a cross to die on). Jesus, as God, gave up the comforts of his royal standing without giving up control or the qualities of His character.

First Idea - No Messiah
What if God allowed the white staff to be taken by the Dark Mirest? This would make the Dark Mirest seem to be unstoppable because the white staff is not there to counteract his powers, though he would still be subject to God's will (like Satan in Job). The staff could reappear somewhere else, and my characters could be in search of it. Meanwhile, the City of God has been taken over.

This is similar to the Bible because Jesus allowed himself to be captured and killed. This seemed like a deathblow to God's efforts, but was really part of the plan, and soon Jesus would rise again to ultimate victory. In my story, the white staff is an allegory of Jesus, and so its being taken and smashed by the Dark Mirest's staff, is like Jesus' death. While the Dark Mirest planned to put the shattered remains in a case under his throne, their disappearance made him come up with another excuse - they were stolen by Keepers (those who are in charge of protecting the White Mirest). *Speaking of which, I guess the White Mirest would have to die as well has having the white staff broken. **Is the staff being broken contrary to Scripture, or does it adequately show how Jesus bore God's wrath meant for us?

Second Idea - If the Story has a Messiah
What if the City of God has not had a White Mirest (someone able to wield the staff without dying) in like 700 years. The city has been corrupted by legalism and a new leader has risen up who says that the prophesied final White Mirest - the Golden Mirest (?) for he will turn the staff to gold and usher in a kingdom that has no end...that Golden Mirest is the nation of (insert name of God's nation) and that can only be fulfilled by them as a people doing something (not sure what: building a large golden staff?).

Then a woman imprisoned in solitary confinement becomes pregnant. This idea might not work, but the idea is that the birth of her son is a miracle. This birth fulfills prophecy and the new leader tries to have him killed and covered up by blaming someone else. This son is whisked away by people visited by angels, and grows up in secret. Eventually, this man starts casting out demons, healing people, etc without the white staff. He is killed, raised from the dead, and then people look to him for cleansing and power over the Dark Mirest and his minions.

It seems like I could have all this as backstory and make one of my characters not aware of all this because he was a Keeper who ran away. The end result is however, that the Messiah will be preached. Even if I am only selling this to Christians, would this still be too similar to Jesus and yet not similar enough to bring Him the glory He deserves?

Sorry my posts are always so long and in depth (confusing even? ;) but I really do appreciate your input, and will try to reciprocate by reading your posts.

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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Messiah?
PostPosted: March 31st, 2010, 11:11 pm 
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Joined: February 27th, 2010, 1:28 am
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I have but one thought for you. You put together an informative post, and for that I thank you immensely!

*thought* Without death there is no forgiveness. We know this to be true from the Bible, but even though one is reality(Death and forgiveness duo) and you fear that your story would become a patterned story, I would still bring a human messiah. If you must, take away his birth and the specialness of it. Have him born of no one but he comes out of the desert, or....or some impossible thing without him being who he claims. I fear I am rambling as tis late for me tonight. Please, a story without the death of the lamb is a story without true hope :(

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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Messiah?
PostPosted: April 1st, 2010, 10:08 pm 
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Location: Des Moines, Iowa USA
That is something to think about. God said the life is in the blood, there is no forgiveness of sin without remission of blood, without the death of the testator there is no testament (I'll save quoting all of Hebrews 9, but it is very important to this discussion).

Here's my question: my first covenant is not the same first covenant of the Bible. My first covenant doesn't require the sacrificing of animals, but a looking towards a staff God ordained for salvation. Does the life in the blood and
"Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.
- does this require a first testament of animal sacrifice and then a second, perfect sacrifice by God shedding His blood?

I am getting so discouraged because I don't want my book to be the Bible, but all these restrictions seem to make the ending the same (Christ dies...believers start a church...Christ returns...world is judged).

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 Post subject: Re: Oluve: Messiah?
PostPosted: April 1st, 2010, 10:47 pm 
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Timotheus....

The Bible was the greatest book ever written. People get discouraged because they fear they are becoming too "Tolkien-esc". What you fear is not so different, but there HAS to be punishment for the sin or your God is not a just one.

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