Greetings,

Do we have to have a 'Christian scene' in our books to make them Christian? Do we have to have a Christian allegory to make a Christian book? What do people mean by a 'Christian scene'?

That last question is one that I have no answer to. I keep hearing the phrase used, and I have no idea what people mean by it. I do not believe that we should have Christianity in our fantasy worlds, unless we are writing a direct allegory like Pilgrim's Progress. I believe that we should have Christianity in our writing.

I do not condemn other people's views on this at all, I am just wanting to find out what all y'all are talking about. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding you.

With joy and peace in Christ,
Jay Lauser

Most of mine are not allegorical. In all but a very select few, I present the Gospel message. In some, the main character is a Christian and God is the only thing they have to sustain them. In others, they are not Christians and thus completely without hope (like my story, The First Arrow) but throughout the story they are led to Christ as their hope. In a few, I merely present a biblical worldview through my writing without preaching Christianity. I have only done that in one of my stories so far.

Well...I have actually never heard the term "Christian scene" ever.

However, if I had to suggest something, I would guess that it would be a scene that brought the message of the gospel through in one way or another.

Aside from the story background I just posted, none of my stories are allegorical in meaning.

I have two reasons for this.

Firstly, unless it is skillfully done, (as in the Chronicles of Narnia) Christian fantasy, with an allegory behind it OFTEN becomes extremely repetetive, and preachy, and just annoying to read! Even I as a Christian am often irritated by how blatantly I am getting morals shoved into my face. (An example of this would be the Seven Sleepers Series) A skillful writer CAN definitely write a good allegory, but it takes structure and self-restraint not to run wild with it.

I firmly believe that your world view should always be reflected in your work, but in such a way, that your novel does not become a sermon under the guise of a story.

And secondly, allegories limit you slightly in where the plot of your book can take you. I'm the type of person who likes to come up with a rough plot, and then the characters, and see what I think would happen based on what I know of my characters. I also like to leave the ending completely open, so that I have freedom for a tragedy, or a bittersweet ending, or a cliffhanger, or a happily ever after. I can decide which fits the tone of the book best.

So that's my rather long winded two cents.

You have a good point about allegories, but I think that some allegories are very good. I agree that they can get tiresome after a while, but a good allegory will not make you try to "fill in the pieces" (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit) but will be allegorical without being preachy.

Oh, I definitely agree! But I know from experience that it is difficult to write a really GOOD allegory. (Or at least in my opinion a good allegory. )

I'd agree with that. That's why I don't write allegories; they can be a bore to read and I'm not good at writing them anyways.

My first (uncompleted) story was an allegory, but it kind of sucked after a while, so I'm currently taking a break. I started another fantasy story out of boredom one day, but haven't done much to it. The story I'll be writing for this year's NaNoWriMo is called "A Forgotten Past", and will be Christian because the main charries is a Christian, and she has to tell her people, the Elves, about God. Otherwise they really have no hope of defeating the Dark Elves.
Cliche, I know :P

There's a difference between a clean story and a Christian story, I think, but as long as a story doesn't bash God or Christianity, and isn't full of things God speaks against specifically, I think it would be okay to read something like that. Unless of course you feel that God doesn't want you to. It's between you and God whether or not your story has a Christian message, whether obvious or not. Personally I try to make every story I write Christian.

I think that what you write should always reflect your world view though. So even if your books aren't overtly Christian, they should still reflect your Christian world view. I think Tolkien is a prime example of this.

I completely agree. (Especially about the wonderful etc. Tolkien). I've actually only read one allegory that I can think of (besides the Seven Sleepers), which is The Chronicles of Narnia (my mom practically raised me on it), and it was very good. I myself do not plan to ever attempt an allegory. Ever. I'm too much like Mindy; I like more elbow room in my plot. The goal I've set for my books right now is to provide good, clean fantasy with a Christian worldview. There are so many books out there that portray the secular point of view, and I want my books to help balance that. I don't believe that it's my job to preach at people (mostly because I'm not a skilled enough writer to do it in an attractive way); I just offer the other side of things, and the rest is between them and God.
Just to clarify, I have absolutely nothing against allegories. I think that when they are well-written, then they are very good, very helpful books, and I encourage anyone who wants to at least try it out (I myself experimented with the outline of an allegory). They just aren't my style. I prefer a more subtle, background worldview (like the wonderful etc. Tolkien's). That's the basics of my POV.

Believe me, allegory is hard to write. Or at least to write well.

Writing a book that simply reflects your Christian worldview instead of cramming it into every corner is much easier, to be honest. You have a bit more freedom as well.

I'm not saying stretch it out as far as you can, just barely making it Christian (it should still be sort of obvious that it's a Christian book), but it doesn't have to be extremely blatant or boring.

I only have one story that isn't blatantly Christian. In some of my stories, I'll have a character who models Christianity and eventually "leads them to the fold" or they'll be Christians and dependence on God is their only concrete assurance.

I am writing my first big piece of work. And yes, I am attempting an allegory! Am I making a huge mistake? It's about the creation so I do think that I have quite a bit of elbow room. But then again, I have never done this before, so what do I know?

Go ahead! Don't expect it to be super good, just write it. Then after you are done, you can make it better. You will learn a lot in the process that will prepare you for the remake, trust me.

As to the question of the "Christian scene", I really think it depends on the skills and weaknesses of the writer. For example, Lawhead attempts to write what I call a "show don't tell gospel", and ends up with a situation in which you can't tell who's supposed to be the Christian.

But on the flip-side of the coin, there are countless authors who ruin their stories impact, not to mention beauty, but simpling "telling", instead of "showing".

I think a good example of the proper form is Bryan Davis. In his series Echoes From the Edge, he creatively combines "show" and "tell", using his own abilities, to produce the desired effect of glorifying Christ, and sharing the gospel. He doesn't shove it down your throat, or water it down. Neither does he wax to long in the "showing".

Fantastic, this was a topic I was looking for!

So far everyone has seemed to define Christianity in Christian Fantasy as something not necessarily allegorical, but stating Christian beliefs and values. I love that, and I think it is a highly accurate portrayal.

But I was wondering. In Christian Fantasy, should we have a God-figure, or is it acceptable to write a story seemingly without any particular Deity (I hope this didn't come out the wrong way.)? I noticed that this hasn't come up yet, and I am curious about everyone else's opinion on this.

In my book, I am afraid to make a portrayal of God, simply because I don't think I would be able to show Him the way He is, and then I wouldn't be able to give glory to God through my work because of an unaccurate representation.

I hope that this was the right topic for this post, and that I didn't confuse anyone.

I don't think there is necessarily a problem with not having a Deity. Tolkien didn't have a clear cut one, Lewis didn't exactly either. But it does make me squirm when Christian authors start having gods and godesses, evil spirits etc...

also, there needs to be a reason for the morality in your book. if your characters are using Judeo-Christian morals there needs to be a basis for it.

Good thought, Mindy. So the characters shouldn't just be good for the sake of being good, correct? They need to have a purpose for being moral.

I know how you feel on the evil spirit, goddess, etc stuff. Yuk!

I have to echo what Radisana says... I am writing my second big piece (The first is not yet finish and is far to unoriginal, but I will finish it anyway...) and it is an allegory. The allegory is also interpreted in the book. So far the people who have read some of it have liked it, but am I, too, making a mistake?

I am loathe to post it on here, for fear that it would not be published, so I cannot do that. It is a wonderful story... full of plot twists and adventure (well, when I get to those parts... I can't wait!). The allegory is fantasy, the interpretation of it is modern....

I have to complete this story... I have put far too much time into this story to abandon it. It is my masterpiece. I know it will be changed and revised and that some things won't be the same as the original, but I still really want to complete this. Besides, it's my NaNoWriMo novel, I need to finish it.

I am at a loss as to what I should do, then, since you all are of the opinion that allegories are not to be attempted, and that they are often "preachy" and "boring". I don't want to have no readership... what should I do?

Allegories are awesome if you write them well. I can't write one very well, but I know some people do a very good job. It might take a bit more work, but I still say you should try it if you want.

I personally (as a mythology buff) disagree. Lewis had gods in Narnia, and Tolkien's work mentions that men called the Valar "gods". In fact I think probably my favorite scene(s) from Chronicles of Narnia is the description of Bacchus in Prince Caspian, so I think a Christian fantasy world can have gods and goddesses in it if it's done right.

My problem with the gods and godesses is when they are taken too far. Like when they are written to cancel every other deity out, or seem to do so anyway.

In Narnia, they are creations of Aslan, and hail him as their leader. Even though they were called gods, they were written as mere guardians of certain elements, or something like that, like spirits. Tash is obviously not as powerful as Aslan, and is more like a Lucifer.

I think as long as it is done very carefully, it's fine, but only if you have a God-figure to overshadow them.

Please remember that Lewis doesn't mean "deity" when he says god. He makes that clear: They are just elementals. To have a deity other than god is an entirely different matter.

One of my books is more Christian-is (I don't know if that is a word) then the other one, but it is not an allegory

Exactly, very good insight.

BTW, good point Inesdar.

Here's my question. Can you have a Christian world view without a Savior and being saved by faith alone through grace? I feel like Christ having the preeminence means not having Christ in your story defies a Christian world view. My only solution, to have a Christ, but not make Him the focus of the story, always loses its legs as I develop the plot.

The story I'm working on here "Oluve" has a thread in Theology on the inclusion of a Messiah: "Oluve: Messiah?". I'll leave that discussion there if you want a specific example. I'm not sure if it is allegorical and if my allegory works or not.

I've never finished the whole Lord of the Rings book, but is there a Christ in it? It seems to me (though I am no expert on Tolkien) that He was more of a Theist than a Christian. Am I wrong in summarizing Lord of the Rings as Good versus Evil, with a focus on man's battle with sin and self-control?

There's no overt "Christ" as such. And Tolkien was a devout Catholic.

That's what I thought, which would make sense why his story was so successful (for at least one reason) - he wasn't preaching faith, but works, which is what every religion on Earth preaches except Christianity. Once I mention faith in a Messiah, I become preachy, and yet, if I never mention it, how do my believers get their victory over temptation, let alone have assurance of salvation before they die?

This leads to another question. If you have believers as characters, how do you not have them preach to someone before that person dies? (Assuming there might be a death scene or entering a place where death is a risk.)

Maybe there could be some sort of saying that would instigate a conversation later, e.g. "Never Alone" in Wayne Thomas Batson's Door Within trilogy. You wouldn't have to make your characters 'preachy'...come up with some other way to do it. It's fantasy, for crying out loud! You poor guy, need a hug! Don't give up on it!

I don't recall a message of works over faith in LotR.................and I've read it many, many times. I remember 'do what's right no matter what it costs'. Frodo didn't take the Ring to Mordor to save himself from anything. He made the sacrifice of his own wellbeing constantly along the way because it was the right thing to do - because he ended up being the best man for the job. There was no obligation for any of the Fellowship to do anything - except that it was the right thing to do.

(I also don't think that a message really affects how well the story does, actually...if you write a good enough story you can say anything you want. trust me, people do! )

Perhaps the key is to focus in on one thing that you want your story to address, and then if something doesn't fit, find a reason why you don't have to talk about it.

For example, some Christian fantasy pieces I've read/heard of (don't ask titles, it's been a long time) decide to just say 'faith in [God]' saves and not get into the Messiah stuff.

Also, as to whether or not having a Messiah is preachy, again I say that if you write a good enough story, you can say anything you want. Seriously!

Try new angles. You're not retelling the Bible, you're telling a story about a parallel world. Think of the brass serpent in the Bible - that was an echo of what was to come. You can echo similarly (except you have the opportunity to be more specific/etc as the story needs)

And you can do that whole 'Chosen One' stuff even though that's been worked over a ton before........

You have options.

I agree with Melody both on the themes in LOTR and also about the options you have. Most of my worlds have people that worship God, but no kind of salvation at all. Granted most of my worlds were imagined at a young age and are currently unfinished products, but still, I think it is very possible to have a world with no Christ/Messianic Figure.
In Christ,
Jordan

I like that idea. I haven't really read enough Christian fiction though, so I'm not familiar with this specific example. Reading through my first draft, I almost laughed about how when one character witnessed, he included the FULL Gospel. My Savior's name is Tsadak. Would my characters only witness to people that can say they've heard of Him, and then say, do you accept Him or His offer? I suppose I could also have scene cuts where they go off and explain the Gospel, and then when that character comes back, they are a new person. I like this. I could say, "Do you accept Tsadak's offer?" If they haven't heard of His offer, I could have them say, "Let me explain that," and then cut the scene to a different scene.

That might work. Thanks for the encouragement Lady E.

My book doesn't blatantly put forth the Gospel, but I will talk about God. I think my book may be Pre-Jesus figure anyway.

For my writings I like to have a moral. Whether it's the intended one or not. I want the readers to be able to relate with the experiences and feelings of the characters.

I'm not especially learned in several aspects of the Bible, and I'm a terrible debater. (I usually try to avoid those at all costs because I usually never get to a point or I lose. Ask my little brother.) I do have some opinions that I hope to explain here below.

I write my books so that those of any faith would be able to read them without feeling like a specific religion--in this case Christianity--is being forced upon. Especially when you personally don't have a relationship with the reader. Everyone can relate with a moral(s).

Has anyone read The Book Of Virtues? That's a really good example of a book anyone can read and relate to because they don't push religion on you, but they do press for good morals and explain the consequences of actions and words. The stories are quite impressionable. I remember my mom reading some to me and my brother when we were little kids, and I still remember and love the stories. ^^

I think we've all read at least one book that has really left a good impression on us, and I think as Christians we should do the same with the writing skills the Lord has gifted us with.

So if anything, incorporate morals in your writings! There are too many books out there that are written as complete eye candy and entertainment all for the sake of money! Write something impressionable! Woot!

*cough* Wow, I actually went on a rampage... XD Hope I didn't offend anyone. If I did it wasn't intended.

Allegories are not my favorite thing to write, yet I have never tried to though . anyway, I have characters that are kind of like Christ and he gave up his life etcetera. in some of my books.