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"And the prophecies?" Derek interrupted. "Everything that was said by Wydyrr and the Keeper?"
"It goes back farther than that," Janin said softly. "It was written in the stars when I was born."

I believe that, on Earth, God aligned the planets and the stars when he first made everything, and in his infinite knowledge he set them up in such an intricate way that, not only would they not crash into each other, but they would show "rare and miraculous wonders" when certain major events happened (i.e. the Christmas star, the darkening of the sun at Christ's crucifixion).

The problem comes when man starts worshiping the stars and treating them as gods instead of as created things that proclaim the glory of their creator.

Why can the same not be for a fantasy world? Though I haven't used any yet, I would be perfectly fine with writing prophecies or predictions in a story.

I suspect that the latter wasn't something "set in motion" like that, but something more direct, so that people couldn't explain it away. (For example, I've seen accounts of claims that it was an eclipse of the sun, debunking them by pointing out that eclipses of the sun can only happen at the new moon and this happened at Passover, which is at the full moon.)

That's one problem. But the more relevant problem for this topic is thinking of them as a source of guidance and information apart from God. God has, after all, forbidden just about all forms of divination---including, I think, opening the Bible at random to solve disputes or look for guidance (as one Brother Cadfael mystery by Ellis Peters suggests was not uncommon in some periods of Church history).

Prophecies are a separate if related issue; they are, after all, an established way for God to speak to his people. And the Law includes instructions about how to tell whether a prophet is a false prophet (if something he predicts doesn't come to pass, or if he says to turn away from God) and what to do with each kind of prophet (listen to and obey a true prophet, put a false prophet to death). What I'm struggling with is whether and how to include prophets in my stories, which are (as all human beings are, or are descended from people who are, from Earth, and the immigrants brought Christianity with them) well after the closing of the Canon and the sealing up of all prophecy on Earth---but aren't (for the most part) set on Earth.

Isa 47:13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
Isa 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

kingjon wrote:

*nods* But I would say that is another way of replacing God. He wants us to use Him as our source of guidance.

kingjon wrote:

But Vanya asked about our use of prophecies in the original post.

It says in Luke that there'll be signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars, I believe it's speaking of the end times.

Astrologers are mentioned in the Old Testament, when King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed the Astrologers could not interpret his dreams.

I basically agree with Mark. God knows from the beginning every tiniest detail of what would happen, so why wouldn't he set the stars in motion from the beginning, especially as He often or usually works through "natural" means He created.

There is an awesome documentary on the "Christmas star" that I would highly recommend if I could remember the name or publisher, it goes into this topic very nicely.

Fear not the tangential thought.

I agree that God knows (and more than knows ... decided) from the beginning everything that will happen in the slightest detail. And he did set the stars in motion from the beginning. But whether he intended for them to communicate any particular information about events on Earth is less clear. "There's no such thing as chance, only God's providence", and God controls even what happens when we open a Bible at random or roll a die or flip a coin ... but that doesn't mean we should make decisions by seeking guidance in any of these ways and living by the outcome we deduce from them.

There is an awesome documentary on the "Christmas star" that I would highly recommend if I could remember the name or publisher, it goes into this topic very nicely.

Oh, I just remembered the verse that leads me to think that way... in Psalms it speaks of the fact that God gave us the stars for "signs, seasons, and years." Has anyone considered that verse? Do you think it applies to this issue?

As for whether or not God set signs in the sky, I believe He did, but I'm aware that that is not explicitly stated in Scripture, and I freely admit that I may be wrong.

If you remember the name of that Asimov story I would be very interested.

I find it really interesting that there seems to be a leaning towards the existence of Christian astrology. I really didn't expect that.

In any case, I think we can all agree that the stars are at least signs saying without ceasing "God is glorious!"

kingjon wrote:

In any case, I think we can all agree that the stars are at least signs saying without ceasing "God is glorious!"

I definitely agree.

Author:	Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ October 30th, 2011, 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Astrology
Prince of Yen wrote: "And the prophecies?" Derek interrupted. "Everything that was said by Wydyrr and the Keeper?" "It goes back farther than that," Janin said softly. "It was written in the stars when I was born." From the ancient celtic myths such as Deidre, to the prophets of the Bible to modern astrology we have always sought to know and understand the future. Our fantasy characters are no different. However, astrology is generally considered incompatible with a Christian worldview. What is your opinion on using astrology in Christian Fantasy? How do you reconcile biblical references of signs in the heavens to the general disapproval of astrology? How do you use prophecies and predictions in your stories?

Author:	Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 30th, 2011, 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Ooh, this topic looks extremely interesting. I bet Arianna will be in here soon subscribes to topic eru

Author:	kingjon [ October 30th, 2011, 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
I haven't had time to fully uncover what I think about this yet, but I'd like to point out one example in Christian fiction that worked, and part of why I think it worked: In Narnia, the Centaurs are astrologers and seers, but instead of this being a way of looking for guidance apart from Aslan, it's clearly shown that the stars move at the Lion's command. I rather doubt I'll include anything like astrology in my fiction, largely because that won't work well with travel to the stars. I do (tentatively) include (and, in my WIPs, probably overuse) a few prophets, but I'm not at all sure how to handle this element.

Author:	Suiauthon Mimetes [ October 30th, 2011, 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
I believe that, on Earth, God aligned the planets and the stars when he first made everything, and in his infinite knowledge he set them up in such an intricate way that, not only would they not crash into each other, but they would show "rare and miraculous wonders" when certain major events happened (i.e. the Christmas star, the darkening of the sun at Christ's crucifixion). The problem comes when man starts worshiping the stars and treating them as gods instead of as created things that proclaim the glory of their creator. Why can the same not be for a fantasy world? Though I haven't used any yet, I would be perfectly fine with writing prophecies or predictions in a story.

Author:	kingjon [ October 30th, 2011, 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Suiauthon wrote: I believe that, on Earth, God aligned the planets and the stars when he first made everything, and in his infinite knowledge he set them up in such an intricate way that, not only would they not crash into each other, but they would show "rare and miraculous wonders" when certain major events happened (i.e. the Christmas star, the darkening of the sun at Christ's crucifixion). I suspect that the latter wasn't something "set in motion" like that, but something more direct, so that people couldn't explain it away. (For example, I've seen accounts of claims that it was an eclipse of the sun, debunking them by pointing out that eclipses of the sun can only happen at the new moon and this happened at Passover, which is at the full moon.) Suiauthon wrote: The problem comes when man starts worshiping the stars and treating them as gods instead of as created things that proclaim the glory of their creator. That's one problem. But the more relevant problem for this topic is thinking of them as a source of guidance and information apart from God. God has, after all, forbidden just about all forms of divination---including, I think, opening the Bible at random to solve disputes or look for guidance (as one Brother Cadfael mystery by Ellis Peters suggests was not uncommon in some periods of Church history). Suiauthon wrote: Why can the same not be for a fantasy world? Though I haven't used any yet, I would be perfectly fine with writing prophecies or predictions in a story. Prophecies are a separate if related issue; they are, after all, an established way for God to speak to his people. And the Law includes instructions about how to tell whether a prophet is a false prophet (if something he predicts doesn't come to pass, or if he says to turn away from God) and what to do with each kind of prophet (listen to and obey a true prophet, put a false prophet to death). What I'm struggling with is whether and how to include prophets in my stories, which are (as all human beings are, or are descended from people who are, from Earth, and the immigrants brought Christianity with them) well after the closing of the Canon and the sealing up of all prophecy on Earth---but aren't (for the most part) set on Earth.

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Author:	Suiauthon Mimetes [ October 31st, 2011, 12:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
kingjon wrote: I suspect that the latter wasn't something "set in motion" like that, but something more direct, so that people couldn't explain it away. (For example, I've seen accounts of claims that it was an eclipse of the sun, debunking them by pointing out that eclipses of the sun can only happen at the new moon and this happened at Passover, which is at the full moon.) That's possible as well, God has unlimited power over his creation. kingjon wrote: That's one problem. But the more relevant problem for this topic is thinking of them as a source of guidance and information apart from God. God has, after all, forbidden just about all forms of divination---including, I think, opening the Bible at random to solve disputes or look for guidance (as one Brother Cadfael mystery by Ellis Peters suggests was not uncommon in some periods of Church history). nods But I would say that is another way of replacing God. He wants us to use Him as our source of guidance. kingjon wrote: Prophecies are a separate if related issue; they are, after all, an established way for God to speak to his people. And the Law includes instructions about how to tell whether a prophet is a false prophet (if something he predicts doesn't come to pass, or if he says to turn away from God) and what to do with each kind of prophet (listen to and obey a true prophet, put a false prophet to death). What I'm struggling with is whether and how to include prophets in my stories, which are (as all human beings are, or are descended from people who are, from Earth, and the immigrants brought Christianity with them) well after the closing of the Canon and the sealing up of all prophecy on Earth---but aren't (for the most part) set on Earth. But Vanya asked about our use of prophecies in the original post. Ah. I won't be having that problem considering that my fantasy world doesn't exist with Earth.

Author:	Skathi [ October 31st, 2011, 3:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
My thoughts are at this point rather under-researched, as I will just watch the conversation for the moment. subscribes to topic

Author:	Lady Elanor [ October 31st, 2011, 5:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
It says in Luke that there'll be signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars, I believe it's speaking of the end times. Astrologers are mentioned in the Old Testament, when King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed the Astrologers could not interpret his dreams. It is also mentioned Isaiah Quote: Isa 47:13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Isa 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it. I have not ever really given much thought to it so not much sense can be made of my post. I just thought I would throw a couple of things out there.

Author:	Arien [ October 31st, 2011, 10:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Well, one thing to keep in mind is the attitude behind it. Most astrologer types, as I understand it, tend/tended to believe that the stars controlled what happened, instead of, say, sometimes being a sign from God. God seems to like symbolic things, and so He has sometimes used astrology for good by setting up signs and such, but it's still something to be very careful about. But in a fictional world, God could have set things up so that the stars do show something of the future or whatever, because that's how He set it up in that world. So I don't think it's necessarily a problem, but is probably a good thing to be careful about.

Author:	kingjon [ October 31st, 2011, 11:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Suiauthon wrote: kingjon wrote: That's one problem. But the more relevant problem for this topic is thinking of them as a source of guidance and information apart from God. God has, after all, forbidden just about all forms of divination---including, I think, opening the Bible at random to solve disputes or look for guidance (as one Brother Cadfael mystery by Ellis Peters suggests was not uncommon in some periods of Church history). nods But I would say that is another way of replacing God. He wants us to use Him as our source of guidance. Indeed---the reason I clarified was that your original phrasing was "... when man starts worshiping the stars and treating them as gods instead of as created things ..." God is to be our source of guidance and our object of worship, but that doesn't mean that by using something as a source of guidance one is necessarily worshipping it, or vice versa. Suiauthon wrote: kingjon wrote: Prophecies are a separate if related issue; they are, after all, an established way for God to speak to his people. And the Law includes instructions about how to tell whether a prophet is a false prophet (if something he predicts doesn't come to pass, or if he says to turn away from God) and what to do with each kind of prophet (listen to and obey a true prophet, put a false prophet to death). What I'm struggling with is whether and how to include prophets in my stories, which are (as all human beings are, or are descended from people who are, from Earth, and the immigrants brought Christianity with them) well after the closing of the Canon and the sealing up of all prophecy on Earth---but aren't (for the most part) set on Earth. But Vanya asked about our use of prophecies in the original post. Sorry, I should have phrased that a little more clearly: Prophecies are a separate if related issue from the use of the stars for guidance apart from God. Of course Vanya asked about them; that's why I mentioned them. Lady Elanor wrote: It says in Luke that there'll be signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars, I believe it's speaking of the end times. I'm fairly sure that much the same language is used all over the prophets when speaking of the judgment that was to (and later did) fall on Israel's enemies (such as Assyria, Edom, and Babylon). But then, there's a great deal of dispute about what "the end times" means in most contexts. (But this is getting highly tangential. Sigh.) Lady Elanor wrote: Astrologers are mentioned in the Old Testament, when King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed the Astrologers could not interpret his dreams. And, I think, in the context of Pharaoh's dreams that Joseph won favor by interpreting, and among those whose power Moses and Aaron challenged in that Pharaoh's court, and so on, and so on ... Astrologers and "diviners" in general tend to get lumped together with magicians (in those narratives and in the Law), as yet another source of knowledge/power that comes from "secret knowledge" rather than from God. We perhaps ought to add dreams to the list of questions to consider, if we're going to talk about prophecies in the same thread as astrology ... dreams, like prophecies and angel messengers, were often used by God to direct his people, but now that we have the full Scripture should be thoroughly tested against Scripture before we accept them, if we rely on them at all. And, on the gripping hand, we have to consider if and how to properly use them in our fiction.

Author:	J. Grace Pennington [ October 31st, 2011, 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
I basically agree with Mark. God knows from the beginning every tiniest detail of what would happen, so why wouldn't he set the stars in motion from the beginning, especially as He often or usually works through "natural" means He created. There is an awesome documentary on the "Christmas star" that I would highly recommend if I could remember the name or publisher, it goes into this topic very nicely.

Author:	kingjon [ October 31st, 2011, 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Aniese of Learsi wrote: I basically agree with Mark. God knows from the beginning every tiniest detail of what would happen, so why wouldn't he set the stars in motion from the beginning, especially as He often or usually works through "natural" means He created. I agree that God knows (and more than knows ... decided) from the beginning everything that will happen in the slightest detail. And he did set the stars in motion from the beginning. But whether he intended for them to communicate any particular information about events on Earth is less clear. "There's no such thing as chance, only God's providence", and God controls even what happens when we open a Bible at random or roll a die or flip a coin ... but that doesn't mean we should make decisions by seeking guidance in any of these ways and living by the outcome we deduce from them. Aniese of Learsi wrote: There is an awesome documentary on the "Christmas star" that I would highly recommend if I could remember the name or publisher, it goes into this topic very nicely. There's also a chilling story by (I think) Isaac Asimov (who is, or was---if he's still alive, he must be very old by now---a secular Jew and a highly influential science fiction author) about an astronaut who finds the ruins of a civilization on a planet around a star that had gone nova, and calculates that that nova was "the Christmas star." Vanya Katerina Jaynin wrote: Fear not the tangential thought. Let me put it this way : I really don't want a debate over which eschatological interpretation is sound, Biblically warranted, orthodox, or otherwise Right to take over this thread. Since eschatology seems to be an area which a lot of Christians can get quite heated about, but many don't even realize there's ever been any disagreement on until their understanding is challenged.

Author:	Aragorn [ October 31st, 2011, 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
From instances of signs in the heavens mentioned in the Bible, it seems that the signs in the heavens are simply illustrators of what God said He would do or is doing. Examples: He said the Messiah would come, and a star also showed this (Matthew 2:2). God answered a prayer to halt the sun in the sky temporarily (Joshua 10:12-14). The signs had no power in and of themselves. While it would be wrong to interpret things from the stars alone, it seems acceptable in fiction to have signs in the heavens that illustrate something God already foretold or is concurrently doing.

Author:	Arien [ October 31st, 2011, 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Aniese of Learsi wrote: There is an awesome documentary on the "Christmas star" that I would highly recommend if I could remember the name or publisher, it goes into this topic very nicely. If you're thinking of the one I'm thinking of, it's called The Star of Bethlehem. It's very interesting.

Author:	Airianna Valenshia [ November 10th, 2011, 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
was not in here soon, as Andrew predicted, due to being gone I miss all the good conversations! has another mild hissy fit Now what made you think that, Andrew? chuckles So, I’m going to shock most everyone, I am sure, besides my beta readers, and say I actually use a type of astrology in my books. I know. Now I’m really complicated, aren’t I? It’s very simple, actually. I have a creature called the Diegose. They are appointed as protectors of mankind. They have been created for this function. When their rider dies, they no longer have a master to serve with. So they take their place in the sky, creating a new colored “star” that moves. These Diegose now serve the people in their new place of service. How? Some of them provide entertainment, swirling in different patterns and figures. Others will make patterns that imply a coming rain, which helps the farmers with their crops. They will tell when a thunderstorm is coming, or if the next day will be sunshiny. They help travelers find their way. They are a tool, and asset. They do not predict the future. I decided against that. That gave them more of a deity feel, I felt. They are not viewed as gods, or something to worship. They are viewed as servants (not slaves), to the people, really. I believe the focus is important. They are not all knowing, they are not god-like, they do not function as fortunetellers. This is a problem with modern astrology, and even some of the biblical eastern astrology that we see portrayed. The stars were like fortune tellers, or they were viewed as if they were imbued with god-like characteristics. They were worshiped and revered. Our stars here on earth can help us judge the seasons, find our way home if lost, and even tell us which way is north. The stars are both beautiful, and useful. I see no reason why we cannot include that in our fantasy stories, so long as we portray it correctly. I am not fond of astrology, generally, because the focus is off. I think prophecies are separate from astrology.

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Author:	kingjon [ October 31st, 2011, 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Aniese of Learsi wrote: Oh, I just remembered the verse that leads me to think that way... in Psalms it speaks of the fact that God gave us the stars for "signs, seasons, and years." Has anyone considered that verse? Do you think it applies to this issue? (Isn't that Genesis?) The "... for seasons, and for years" bit I've always taken as denoting their use in marking the passage of time in longer units than days and months. The "for signs" clause is less clear. (Tangentially, but somewhat apropos, I point you to this post on the Revelation or Bust blog.) Aniese of Learsi wrote: As for whether or not God set signs in the sky, I believe He did, but I'm aware that that is not explicitly stated in Scripture, and I freely admit that I may be wrong. My thought-of-the-moment is that we have at least one example of God using the stars to reveal truth to (pagan) astrologers (the Magi who came to visit Jesus as a child), but we also have one example of God using a donkey to save the life of a pagan (and in every other instance we know of false) prophet who, after blessing God's people, went on to teach their enemies how to lead them astray ... and that doesn't mean that we should go around attaching tape recorders (or whatever the more modern equivalent is) to every donkey we can find just in case one says something. Even the canonical ways by which God spoke to his people have already ceased; the writer of Hebrews wrote to his first-century audience that "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." In any case, I think we can all agree that the stars are at least signs saying without ceasing "God is glorious!" Vanya Katerina Jaynin wrote: If you remember the name of that Asimov story I would be very interested. Sorry, it's not Asimov; it's Arthur C. Clarke. The title might be simply "The Star". Vanya Katerina Jaynin wrote: I find it really interesting that there seems to be a leaning towards the existence of Christian astrology. I really didn't expect that. I can see good arguments for why it might work ... but none for why it might be necessary after the coming of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, in Christian fiction set in another, different world, it could work well. One of the things about how Lewis uses it in the Narnia series is that he's not just using astrology as an isolated element; throughout the series, he's over and over showing pagan culture as something that ought to be subject to God. Bachus and Silenus are only "safe" in the Lion's presence, Father Christmas shouts "Long live the true King!", and so on.

Author:	Aragorn [ October 31st, 2011, 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
kingjon wrote: In any case, I think we can all agree that the stars are at least signs saying without ceasing "God is glorious!" I definitely agree.

Author:	Skathi [ October 31st, 2011, 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Jonathan Garner wrote: kingjon wrote: In any case, I think we can all agree that the stars are at least signs saying without ceasing "God is glorious!" I definitely agree. Seconds!

Author:	Suiauthon Mimetes [ November 1st, 2011, 1:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
@kingjon Ah, I see. Sorry, for being unclear. I basically agree with what Grace has said.

Author:	Rachel Newhouse [ November 2nd, 2011, 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Jonathan brings up an interesting point. (Or, at least, his post got my brain working, whether or not he was trying to bring up a point...) Does it make a difference if the prophecy comes before the celestial indication? That is, if a spiritual authority says "Look to the heavens for this sign of this event," rather than someone looking to the stars and interpreting them as saying "That alignment must mean such-and-so"? I hope that made sense...

Author:	Aragorn [ November 2nd, 2011, 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
That makes sense. And yes, that was my point.

Author:	Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ November 20th, 2011, 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
Excellent thoughts Kait, I was thinking specifically of the Diegose when I mentioned you (Semi off the topic, how do the Diegose know when rain is coming, for instance?) eru

Author:	Airianna Valenshia [ November 20th, 2011, 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
giggles Very off topic. Let's just say my Grandmother knows when it is going to rain, so I don't think it is unreasonable for them to know that, too. Atmospheric changes.

Author:	Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ November 20th, 2011, 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Astrology
I know when rain is coming... it's not hard to tell.