I have a slight problem with this. I mean, I have a lot of friends who are girls, but I have trouble writing female characters. They're either tomboys, or they're protected stereotypical girls that have to be rescued out of every scrape. And I have a lot of trouble writing their thoughts and emotions--I just don't know how they think. Guys, any tips on writing female characters? Or girls, any tips?

(Thanks for the suggestion, PotK )

eruheran

To be honest, that's one of the reasons I killed Rinifer.

Rinifer: HEY!

Me: What? It's true. But anyways, I didn't want him to be there to hold Trina's hand through all of her troubles, so he was just like a refreshing friend to her. But she deals with her problems without resorting to violence like Elanhil does. Although, I'm not the best person to ask.

I personally really don't like girl characters who scream when the monster comes out, faints, and needs to be rescued by the valiant protagonist guy. I'd much prefer a girl character that picks up the nearby fence post and clonks the monster on the head with it, before checking to see if everyone's ok.

I think a good girl character can be both ladylike but still courageous. They don't have to be a tomboy to pull their own weight. I like reading about a girl character who speaks, walks, dresses like a lady, and yet sticks up for people, has a good sense of humour, and if the situation need be, can think and act quickly.

Don't know if any of that insight is a help, but there's a few points, for you.

Most modern female characters are either too girly or trying to be the guy. I'm no normal person so I'm not sure how good my style is but I tend to write my girls as tough and standing up when there's a need, but stepping down when there's a man to do the man work.

For example, I have characters who are fighters but one is a doctor in most of her spare time and one only fights to protect the orphans she looks after.

This is an interesting thread!

Here are a few basic tips.

--Difference between writing women and girls:

1- Girls (under the age of 15) are more tomboy-ish than grown women.

2- Women normally care about their personal care, like nails, hair, clothes. Most don't like getting dirty.

Let's tack on a "many" to the beginnings of all these, yes? I hate generalizations and stereotypes.
Women tolerate isolation and pain better than men (despite popular opinion this is often the case).
While often emotional, in my observations more logical in their decisions because they do not act on whims and desires to impress others. Emotions often don't direct the important decisions.
Women are smaller physically (obviously).
Would rather work things out diplomatically than rely on force.
Physically fight dirty (hair pulling, eye poking, etc.) Girl gangs are very dirty, and often worse than male gangs.
Know how to emotionally hurt people better.
Girls will often form cliques and exclude each other. Hurt each other far more than any outside force will. Sadly, this often continues into women-hood.
Spend lots of time trying to "fix" themselves, physically and in terms of personality.
Actually enjoy leadership and independence, and thrive on these (from my observations)
Often agonize and over-think big (and small) decisions.

I'll probably be adding to this more as I think of things.

Oh yeah, forgot. Girls like to connect things, this makes it really hard to listen all the way through a female conversation but they also like to connect people. While a guy may get mad and need his space and be totally fine later, a girl likes to work things out right then.

Riniel, what you wrote is very good--about connecting everything. So was this:



Thanks, y'all--this is great.

eruheran

Hm... not all women are emotional. I myself rarely ever cry or get upset. It's something that I've never really allowed myself to show. I'll easily express joy or frustration, but I get teary once in a blue moon and if I'm going to cry, I do after I've gone to bed.

But then my sister cries every time something goes wrong, and my Mum can be quite a bit emotional, so I guess it's up to who you take after.

So true! I can hear a person say one sentence, and my mind fires in all different directions, connecting it to different books, movies, events, people, etc. That's why my parodies are always so strange and hard to follow; I use so many references to different sources in every one.

And Bush, neither do I. When I am angry or sad, all my outside shuts down. I'm not a "Show your emotions and talk about them" kinda girl. That's why I made the "most" disclaimer.

Also, I've heard this said so I thought it prudent to put it up here, though it doesn't apply to me; a woman or girl would rather be loved than respected.
So not true with me, earning others' respect is way more important than earning their love.

I probably wouldn't make a very good heroine. I don't think I'd be the fainting, swooning sort of girl (I hope not, anyway!) but I'd still probably be more of a liability than an asset. Unless you needed someone to be comforting and encouraging while the guys are out doing the hard stuff. I think I could manage that.

I honestly don't know how much advice I can give on writing women. I don't usually analyze myself or my female characters that deeply. For myself, I'm emotional and sensitive; when other people around me are angry, I get tense and start getting upset/unhappy. I don't often cry in front of people any more, though. I want other people to be happy, to the point of being a doormat at times.

Ehh...not sure if there's anything more to say. I don't think I could say much about the way women think, not without thinking about it a lot more.


(And Celearas, I think I might be one of those girls who'd rather be loved than respected...I mean, I don't want to be disrespected, but if it was a choice between respect or love I think I'd choose love.)

I don't like to show when I'm feeling upset either. But I can show anger... a bad trait I'm working on fixing.

I would definitely rather have respect over love though. In fact, it is impossible to love without respect. Because according to the Bible, "Love is patient, kind... doesn't think more of itself than others..." so if that is all what love is, when you love someone you respect them as well. If you have love first, respect doesn't come later. But if you have respect, out of it can grow love.

Wow, ramble... nevermind me, let it get back on topic!

This is sort of how Numaryá, the only main female character I have, is. A lot of her emotion is communicated through her thoughts, not her actions and speech. Her role in the book is sort of contradictory at the moment. She does a good job of hiding her own emotions, like you wrote above, but she's the one that consistently encourages my male MC and supports him. So that's sort of her main role in the book--the supporter. Which is hard, to keep her involved in the storyline as much as Zacire is. And with the help of Willow's comments (thanks!) I've reduced the number of times she has to be rescued. =P

eruheran

You're welcome!

This won't go for all girls, but I am very much a people-pleaser. Like Leandra said, if it makes other people happy, I can end up being a doormat. I'll usually agree with people, and if someone says something I don't agree with, I just won't say anything at all. In other words, I'm very non-confrontational.

Though, if I'm stuck in a situation where I need to be a leader, I can. It's just not my favorite thing to do. I prefer to stay behind the scenes and encourage people.

I don't think I could choose between being loved and respected; they kind of go together, if it's Biblical love.

Also, girls have a tendency to find things "wrong" with themselves, and then try to "fix" whatever it is. This might mean standing in front of a mirror for a hour (not something I would do!), or even trying to change their personality.



This is true for me too. If I cry, I do it at night when no one else is around. And I go through phases; sometimes I hardly ever cry, and sometimes I cry more often.

Well, that was a rather rambling post! But I hope there was some useful stuff in there!

--Most women prefer their surroundings to be organized and tidy.

--Most women care more about how they look than men do. About after the age of twelve, they don't like being seen before they have their hair "fixed" and makeup on.

--Girls are usually more tomboy-ish than women. About after the age of 13, they aren't as tomboy-ish.

--Some women play competitive sports, like roller derby, basketball, softball, volleyball, etc.

--Girls may belong to a "clique", especially in middle/high school.

--Girls have the same feelings as boys, but (most of the time) the feelings are more exaggerated, even if they don't openly display their feelings.

--Some women/girls have so much empathy or sympathy that their friends' feelings become their own.

--I very often show my feelings through frowns, smiles, and other "emoticons". I cry quite often, even if I'm happy. If I hear my favorite song on the radio or think about how God created all of the beautiful universe for his own enjoyment, I often feel tears pricking at my eyes.

I hope this helps!

This is extremely true. Even those of us that aren't concerned with our physical appearance (I know some who could care less, to the point of being sloppy) can be bitter perfectionists in other areas. We obsess, allowing faults to haunt us, and won't put something down until we've fixed it to our satisfaction. This can be a detriment, especially in terms of projects - if you've been working at something for an hour and still don't have it right, you probably need to take a break! But if isn't fixed, it annoys us... or, at least, it drives me crazy. I hate leaving things "undone." I like to leave everything at a nice "stopping point."

In terms of being concerned about physical appearance, there are girls on all ends of the spectrum. But I will say that being concerned about your appearance doesn't mean you adhere to the world's standard of perfection. I don't wear makeup or anything, and I am oblivious to the fact that I'm the only woman in a 10-mile radius wearing a modest skirt. I don't care what the world thinks in terms of that. But if I'm not up to my personal standards, or if I didn't have enough time to get ready and felt rushed, my confidence goes down and self-consciousness goes up. It's a very real feeling, and it applies to other areas - rushing into things unprepared (whatever "prepared" means) lowers my confidence, even if I'm fully capable.

As for being emotional, I'm probably an exaggerated case since I'm a dramatic writer, but I am very perceptive of emotions. I am constantly measuring and evaluating them from various sources. I have a keen sense of what I "feel" about any given situation, and I'm making assumptions about what others in the situation feel. This can lead me to read into things and make mountains out of molehills.

However, just because I'm constantly processing emotions doesn't mean I'm wearing them on my sleeve. Some girls do; others are more refined. I'm a cross because how I act in person and in writing are very different. In person, I take exciting and harsh news with outward calmness. In writing, however, it's very easy to tell what my mood is and whether I think the current situation is professional or personal, because the tone of my writing morphs (consiously and not). (That being said, don't panic if I write you a cold email - sometimes things come out more stoically than I intended! )



This is true as well. I'm also seconding the notion of making connections - my mind makes a lot of leaps and comparisons! Lastly, it is true that some girls dislike getting dirty if they can help it... and then they turn around and think it's a mark of pride if they get scrapbooking ink on their fingers because they were creating.

Ugh, you've read my mind. This is a horrible trait at times! I can spend hours designing one book cover for someone because it "just isn't right yet". And even when I've finished it, and it still isn't right, it nags me to no end! I always have to have things "just so." It can be terribly frustrating and annoying at times to be so picky!



I often overthink small decisions. And the more thinking I do on it, usually results in a worse outcome.

I don't appreciate being dirty. I don't enjoy it when I'm walking outside and I get mud splashed on me. But if there's a vehicle out there bogged in the mud and it's slogging down rain, I'll readily run out there and mudsling with a shovel to help. Depends on the situation. I won't get dirty without a good reason!

Um, trying to think of advice or at least insight to girls that haven't been posted yet...

Unlike some who have posted, I'm an extremely open book, emotional girl. People know when I'm upset, annoyed, anxious, etc.

Some things I do know from observation and things I second from above replies:

-Many women like cleanliness and/or organization. Especially in the bathroom area

-Women like communication and for others to communicate back

-Many women have mood swings and can take comments, for example, and make them into bigger things than they really are

-Many women can get affected by tones of voice which may result in them getting upset

-Some women like gossip and think of it as keeping up in society

-Some women take their emotions out on someone close to them

-Crying is a stress reliever for us

-Many women tend to worry about things they are aren't in control of

That's all I've got for now. ^^;; Hope this was helpful.

From the typing of a girl,

~Calen,

Philli, I hear you about the modest skirt thing. Same thing happened to me a while back. Girls have greater pressure to be "accepted" with their clothing/makeup/jewelry.

You can't get any more different than me and my sister Kathy is very careful about her clothes, everything matches, she never comes down in the morning without her make up on, she always looks soo beautiful. She doesn't like getting dirty at all and she faints at the sight of blood. Me, I can't be too bothered with make up, when I can be bothered to put it on its just a quick splash, I'm generally in jeans and a shirt and I love scrapping with the dogs and walking and yea I don't mind getting dirty

However I always think Kathy is so brave, I hate confrontation and I never say anything to anyone who has upset me, my way of dealing with it is shutting it all up inside, she'll just go and talk it out with them. She never seems afraid of people whilst I am, and she'll happily deal with any situation that comes her way

My point is there are different ways to write girls and you can mix a bit of everything in there! Someone can be very girly and not like to get dirty but still be brave and stand up for themselves, whilst me I don't mind getting dirty but I wouldn't call myself very brave at all! I guess that's what makes every individual interesting I hope this has helped a little and I haven't just rambled on!

Well, this could just be being a perfectionist--I'm the same way, and I am most definitely a guy. But perhaps it's a tendency that more girls have.

I think I've gotten what I need so far. Right now, ironically, because I was trying to show the emotion of my main MC (Zac) I made his emotions very visible and he cries some. Adding Numarya in later as an MC (she's a girl) meant that her emotions aren't really showing a lot in most of the story. So it's sort of backwards--Zacire sort of acts like a girl, and Numarya isn't really emotional at all. So I need to fix that.

Thanks everyone for your great posts--they've been really helpful.

eruheran

You may not have to fix it, though. You're characters can grow the further you write your novel. Your MC Zac isn't necessarily weak or anything because he shows more emotion than the girl. You could counter this by showing internal conflict in the girl that doesn't come forward outwardly. Both characters can be just as emotional as each other, and the audience can know it if you show the outside of Zac and the inside of Numarya.

If this made no sense, or you know it just won't work, then just ignore me.

After getting hit with a soccer ball last year I don't think that'd bother me...



For me, it's more of an "I want somebody to understand, but at the same time I don't want people in my head" type thing.



Though it doesn't mean some females have a problem getting dirty.



Same with me. I'm not emotional, I never cry, and I try not to let people know I'm upset (although I'm sure my actions may say otherwise at times). I will easily be happy, hyper, excited, etc., but avoid "negative" feelings.



I say I don't care what people think, and even then I sometimes don't say or do things because of the reaction I get.



Though not always. I can't get across my room half the time =P And I'm not near as concerned as my mom about keeping the house as clean as possible.



Agreed. It was probably around 12 that I started caring about how I look (although for me it wasn't hair and makeup as much as not looking like I randomly chose clothes out of my floor =P)



I don't know, I'm older than that and I'm still not all that girly most of the time.



Agreed.


I don't know if those random comments even helped... I just wasn't really sure what to say
Female characters don't necessarily have to fit any stereotypes. Some girls like makeup, hate dirt, and will show their emotions. Others may not even know what to do with makeup, love to go mudding, and won't let a soul know what they're feeling. Or it could be any combination of that.
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This is officially the least helpful post ever.... :S

It isn't a useless post! You were confirming opinions and quirks of girls from a girl's point of view. ^_^

First off, I'm not a girl. *points at username*

But a lot of my characters are. Being a very introverted guy who's never been close to a girl, I had a lot of trouble at first with writing them. After a while, though, I realized...they're a lot like guys, except in ways they're counterparts. For example:

Guys are mainly attracted physically, while girls are mainly attracted emotionally. Because of that, girls tend to be better at understanding and handling emotions...and manipulating them...than guys.

In general, girls want to be loved and guys want to be respected (or even feared, hence the higher tendency for violence among males.) This is laid out in the Bible: Husbands, love your wives...and wives, respect your husbands. Not to say guys don't want to be loved either, but we tend to worry more about being strong and respectable.

Guys want to fight. It's true. I often daydream about beating up a nasty criminal...in particular one who's trying to do nasty things to a girl. But girls want to be fought for, because it tells them they're loved.

Notice how all the differences complement how guys are. I think it's great how God designed things to work. Too bad the fallen world we live in has distorted this picture for most people. Equality of the sexes, indeed. *snort* People take that way too far. Women and men are equal in person but not in role. Just like women are the ones designed to bear children, so men are the ones designed to provide for and protect them.

I'd better not get off topic...but there's what was on my mind.

Oh, I don't know about all of that. I am on the "guy" side of most of the things you outlined, except for the emotionally attracted part. Though I do appreciate some shaggy haired men while slathered in filth- actors and such (guess who).
I will be watching a show, typically one of those rescuing animals from abuse shows, and have to leave becuse I am getting far too excited about the idea of finding the guy and showing he/she how it feels to be beaten. Not too excited "for a girl" either, mind you. I do prefer settling things diplomatically, it's more logical and I know as well as anyone how easily the body heals, but I can and will physically fight if something cannot be solved diplomatically.

Another way to find out about women is look at history. A basic view might tell you the basic, idealized story, of happy women staying home baking cookies, unconcerned with the larger issues of the larger world because the strong men take care of that. But that is just so wrong. Isabella of Castile, with all her faults, was strong and amazing, able to raise and encourage armies with a word. And who could forget Elizabeth I? These were true, amazing women who lived in patriarchal times and yet had countries and their men respect and revere them. Not only in the sense of "Lay down my life chivalrously for the honor of my queen, for she rules by divine right and I guess is the best we could get," either, but the true respect of a leader that was respectable. If Isabella or Elizabeth had not been women, their achievements would have still been remarkable. Their lives were not matters of, "Gee, look, these women have broken out of the constraints of their sex!" (No matter how many people said that about Elizabeth) but "Wow, these are just good rulers."

Well put. I agree. We girls are designed for specific tasks, as are men. We shouldn't strive to be like the opposite, because we were given the tasks we are best at. We shouldn't try to swap something so special for something we will never be as good at.

There. Point agreed with. Continue on topic!

Yet, I think that women are allowed to change a tire, etc, etc. If a woman stays single, I think she should know how to at least bring in income and do basic car service, like checking the oil. If a man stays single, he should know how to at least do basic household tasks. That's my view, anyway.

^And even if they are married. Sometimes a man or woman might go off on a business trip or out for a weekend with friends, and the man needs to know how to cook and keep the house clean (So she doesn't come home to "Honey, start cleaning) and she needs to know how to fix the car or computer if it breaks down while he's gone.
And I don't know about "Never be as good at," there are some amazing male chefs and there are spectacular female engineers and politicians and pilots. Some women are born with higher IQs than men, and I think she should be allowed to own that out in the world in a challenging career. Some women can not physically stay home or be "nurturing." (I fall in that category) Some men are naturally more nurturing, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong for a naturally more nurturing man to marry a naturally more "Go get it" woman, and for her to work and for him to stay home, or have a job and makes less money so he can be with the kids more. They could both be happy that way. If she had to stay home and he had to go out and make it all, I think they'd both feel trapped and miserable.
I don't think you can say "designed for specific tasks," because that's just not what you see. You do see women heading up big companies, and they're just as good at it as any man. If it was true that each sex was designed for only a certain group of tasks, that would never happen. But as it is the world is way more complex than a set of boxes, and everyone is different. People should be allowed to be different, and like different things. But these boxes are so established even for kids, a boy who looks like he might enjoy fashion design is shot down, and a girl who brings a Star Wars water bottle to school is made fun of because SW is "for boys". It's just mean, and it shouldn't have to be like that.
I'm sorry that this is a bit off-topic, but it's a huge problem I see both in the church and in the world, this over-emphasising of a Y chromosome and an almost disregard for what an individual might be designed to do. Not so much here, but I just wanted to let it out. Because in some circles, I don't exist.

*goes off to start topic in general discussion.*

Guys, if you have any specific aspects you have trouble with, you could ask questions.

I usually have the problem with the "damsel in distress" writing. I have a hard time making my female MC the equal of the male in the tasks that they accomplish together, usually because I'm not sure if a girl really would/could/should do that specific job or whatever.

eruheran

If you describe the situation here, we might be able to help you with that Eruheran.

Something that might help... just because a woman and a man are working together doesn't mean they need to be sharing an equal amount of the work. It depends on what's going on, and whether the job is a one-person or two. Even if one of them is doing the bulk of the work, for whatever reason, the other can be helping. You know, if the man is under the car fixing something, the woman can hand him tools. (Over-simplified example.)

That's what it's like in Hunter Romero and the Atlantean Curse, Hunter and Alijra are working together, along with Michal, but Alijra doesn't really do anything. Hunter does the thinking and fighting, Michal has the brains, and Alijra just shocks Michal and catches sneaks.

You're going to need to develop that girl more then, Varon. Your female audience isn't going to like a girl that flat and wall flowerish.

Write as if it were a guy, but put a dress on it.

Well... I wouldn't do that either. If your character has so much testosterone that she might as well be male, then just make her a guy. I'm not the damsel in distress type. I'm capable of doing anything a guy could. That doesn't mean I do, or that I look at a situation the same as a guy. There are many similarities between man and woman. There would have to be in order for her to be his completion, but there are still many differences. No matter how hard a girl tries to be a guy, there are still differences. Believe me, I'd know. So If you are going to write your female characters as men in dresses, then you don't actually have a girl and you'd be better off making her a guy.

She should be able to do the dirty work, but glad to leave it to the guy whenever possible. But, there are different possibilities. There are many personality types, so one may enjoy the 'dirty work' or adventure part, and another may prefer to just stay at home and not do any of it. Same with guys...

She's not flowery. It's just that a treasure hunt for ancient artifacts doesn't have much use for a thief skill set, except for catching Nazi spies in an airship and making the villains choke when they learn that the 15 year old girl who speaks English with an accent has a preference for vodka over claret.

Then again, none of the MCs in HRatAC are exactly very developed characters.

Wall-flowery is what Vanya (or Val, I don't remember) said; ie, someone who's there for decoration. Like a wall flower.

I say develop all of your characters more. Google some character worksheets. Get down their history, their family, what motivates them, their general personality, their hidden personality, any quirks. . .

I have all that. I use character profiles from NaNo YWP role-plays. It's really hard to describe her to people since they don't know what will happen next. She's not there for decoration, her skills when it comes to the art of escaping from locked rooms hasn't been utilized yet.

A wall flower is often thought of as a pansy as well. She's so delicate that if you touch her, she bruises, like a pansy. So I had a two fold meaning when I said wall flowerish. Katty's definition was correct, though.

The easiest way to understand what she's like is just to read the draft. Her knife skills and lock picking will be more handy now that the Nazis have become a bigger picture.

If she's got skills that will eventually come useful, you need to develop them earlier. It's called a Chekhov's gun, at least in screenwriting speak. The rule of thumb is: If you're going to fire a gun later in the story, you need to show it on the wall or on the table earlier on. Otherwise the gun seems to come out of nowhere as undeveloped and cheap writing.

In the case of your girl, if you wait until a moment of need for her to say "Oh, you know what, I know how to pick locks," it's going to look cheap. If, however, she has a habit of playing with locks just for fun, or uses this skill in a smaller scenario, everything will connect properly.

Now I'm envisioning a character that's playing with the locks while the other people are trying to discuss something important. One of those annoying characters that offer some humor and color.

I've done that. She picked a lock on a door to free Michal in the airship scene.

That's good, then.

-Catches up on posts- There are some really interesting thoughts here.

Femininity is the key. Not guys in dresses. Maybe not flowers and lace, but just a bit of femininity.

So, real quick here, this is my scenario I'm trying to "revise"

Zac and Aryá (or as Willow would call her, Nummy) are captured by these people who live underground. They're taken underground. They talk to the head honcho and displease him. He throws them in to the underground city (which is a massive cavern underneath the Mirare, that they (the Mirare that is) don't go in to.)

So they're in this underground cavern. They find out some stuff, then some wolves start chasing them. Ahh! Everyone runs! =) So they're running, they get through a passage in to this huge, columned, hallway. They're trapped against the wall and the wolves surround them.

Zac lunges @ the wolves with his sword, and falls of balance and almost falls over. A wolf leaps at Zac and Arya kills it with her dagger. They run again with the wolves on their heels (the wolves hesitated because of this massive rumbling).

Then, they get to the other end of the hallway. The columns start falling and the ceiling starts to collapse. They clamber in to this tiny tunnel and start climbing upwards. They come out in the middle of a barren desert.

Ok. Not really sure why I felt the need to write all that, but anyways. This is sort of the turning point in the book, when Zac and Arya begin to see past their differences and work together better. And I used to have Arya knocked out right before the little upwards tunnel, and Zacire had to drag her up. Willow suggested I remove that, though (so I did).

I guess it's kind of unreasonable for me to ask when y'all haven't read the whole chapter - but do you think the role Numarya plays is adequate? Not too manly, not "damsel-in-distress"? I could post an excerpt of the chapter if y'all would like to read that.

Thanks!
eruheran