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I've solved this a couple of different ways in the past. One solution is to simply take away the underlying problem. I've made it so that some of my 'other races' do indeed trace their linage to Adam. The problem with this is that there are limits as to how much a human can change. We are genetically incapable of become anything other than human. So that creates a whole new set of problems that have to solved by means of biological catastrophe, supernatural intervention and other such things.

Seraph wrote:

Actually, you have to remember that our genetic code is woefully lacking compared to before the flood. Because all genetic information we have now comes from Noah, his wife, and the wives of his sons (not the sons, because they got all their information from their parents) we have only a few possible genetic variants. Presumable, Adam had quite a few more.

My solution is simply to assume that the original humans were simply overflowing with possible variants, and work from there. I have Elves, Dwarves, some variants of Men not found in our world, and a host other extremely rare variations which occasional replenish the genetic variety.

I'll try to find you some lectures on Creationist Genetics. They can be very enlightening.

Thank you! I really like your solution. It makes sense, because even though animals didn't sin, they are subject to death. By the way, do you think animals evolved to have sharp teeth (they wouldn't have needed sharp teeth to eat grass and fruit before the fall, and because God said everything was good, I don't believe there was death before Adam's sin, thus making all the animals herbivores).

Your solution really frees my mind to writing other races, which is cool. Now if I could learn to make cool ones like Lady E, I'll be all good.

Author:	Yehoshua [ February 26th, 2010, 11:28 am ]
Post subject:	Salvation
A theme that I've explored in nearly all my works is the means of salvation for non-human races. All my stories deal with the relationship between God and His creation, be they human, elf or any other mythical creature. The predicament is this: The Bible clearly teaches that sin was ushered into the world by Adam. Likewise, Jesus Christ became the "last Adam" and saved humanity from their sin (I Corinthians 15:45). Therefore, it seems logical that only descendants of the first Adam can be saved by the last Adam. Of course, this is no problem in our world. But in another world it becomes a bit of problem keeping the plot in line with theology. How can an elf, werewolf or anything that is not a descendant of the first Adam be saved by the last Adam? I've solved this a couple of different ways in the past. One solution is to simply take away the underlying problem. I've made it so that some of my 'other races' do indeed trace their linage to Adam. The problem with this is that there are limits as to how much a human can change. We are genetically incapable of become anything other than human. So that creates a whole new set of problems that have to solved by means of biological catastrophe, supernatural intervention and other such things. I've also toyed around with making species that are in different spiritual states. For example, I'll have one species that is still in innocence because they have not yet eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, this still leaves me with the problem of how they obtain salvation after they have sinned. This leads me to the third option of used. I some times make species that are like the angels in that they have only one choice to either stay in their perfect state or become corrupted and wicked for eternity. So, I'm curious what your thoughts might be. Are there any other ways of dealing with this issue? What are your opinions on the three options I've already presented. Are there others? Or am I just being a dork and making mountains out of molehills ?

Author:	Arias Mimetes [ February 26th, 2010, 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
In my stories, any race can be saved just as humans are (well, there's only two --or three, depending on how you count them-- other races at the moment, but anyway :P). However, I never thought about it this way, so it is definitely something to think about.

Author:	Neil of Erk [ February 27th, 2010, 1:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Seraph wrote: I've solved this a couple of different ways in the past. One solution is to simply take away the underlying problem. I've made it so that some of my 'other races' do indeed trace their linage to Adam. The problem with this is that there are limits as to how much a human can change. We are genetically incapable of become anything other than human. So that creates a whole new set of problems that have to solved by means of biological catastrophe, supernatural intervention and other such things. Actually, you have to remember that our genetic code is woefully lacking compared to before the flood. Because all genetic information we have now comes from Noah, his wife, and the wives of his sons (not the sons, because they got all their information from their parents) we have only a few possible genetic variants. Presumable, Adam had quite a few more. My solution is simply to assume that the original humans were simply overflowing with possible variants, and work from there. I have Elves, Dwarves, some variants of Men not found in our world, and a host other extremely rare variations which occasional replenish the genetic variety. I'll try to find you some lectures on Creationist Genetics. They can be very enlightening.

Author:	Millardthemk [ February 27th, 2010, 2:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Neil of Erik: "I'll try to find you some lectures on Creationist Genetics. They can be very enlightening." In theory I agree! An overflowing Gene pool is a powerful tool in witnesses actually. But....Saying that a person became a "werewolf" because of a huge gene pool is a bit of a stretch methinks. If this is just your explanation in your story, "OK" but I am curious if you believe this is to be true in real life. "God created man in his own image..." Thanks Millardthemk

Author:	Yehoshua [ February 27th, 2010, 10:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Neil of Erk wrote: Seraph wrote: I've solved this a couple of different ways in the past. One solution is to simply take away the underlying problem. I've made it so that some of my 'other races' do indeed trace their linage to Adam. The problem with this is that there are limits as to how much a human can change. We are genetically incapable of become anything other than human. So that creates a whole new set of problems that have to solved by means of biological catastrophe, supernatural intervention and other such things. Actually, you have to remember that our genetic code is woefully lacking compared to before the flood. Because all genetic information we have now comes from Noah, his wife, and the wives of his sons (not the sons, because they got all their information from their parents) we have only a few possible genetic variants. Presumable, Adam had quite a few more. My solution is simply to assume that the original humans were simply overflowing with possible variants, and work from there. I have Elves, Dwarves, some variants of Men not found in our world, and a host other extremely rare variations which occasional replenish the genetic variety. I'll try to find you some lectures on Creationist Genetics. They can be very enlightening. Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that. I think Millardthemk is right as well. However, that would give me a lot more options.

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Author:	Yehoshua [ February 27th, 2010, 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
^True. Though I don't think anyone is suggestion quite that extreme of changes. However, more humanish (that's a homeschool word ) creatures such as elves, dwarves, giants and maybe even things like vampires could be in the realm of possibility.

Author:	Neil of Erk [ February 27th, 2010, 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Let me get a thread up for them.

Author:	Timotheus [ March 15th, 2010, 8:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
I think many of these suggestions are workable depending on the purpose of having different races in your story. I like the angel parallel, but wonder how offensive it would be to only have one race being saved in your story. On the flip side, thinking of Dragonlance, I don't know that I like how each race has their own eternal destiny. In Dragonlance, I remember the dwarves going to be with their fathers in the afterlife. There is no Hell for them. I'm not a Dragonlance expert, but in general it seems only people who do really bad stuff, like Lord Soth, go to "Hell." This is a tough issue, but I think we can find a solution if we had more specific details about your story, such as the origin of these other races and how they are crucial to the story. In my research on speculative fiction, I read once that people should write in a particular genre because that genre best enables them to tell the story they want to tell, not just because they want to have fairies and elves. I'm not sure I totally agree with that, but if you start with Fantasy because you want to write elves, then find a way to make their existence in the story a crucial factor.

Author:	Timotheus [ March 15th, 2010, 9:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Also, I think the large gene pool is an interesting idea, especially when juxtaposed with us being created in God's image. With your own world and creation story, there is leeway. However, I prefer the supernatural means to creating different races. I would be interested in reading a story where maybe a tower of Babel-like experience caused God to separate the people by race instead of just language. My first book, The Tsadakeen (being edited), has "the fall" creating a race of human-animal hybrids with magical powers. All humans are susceptible to becoming infected with this "virus" but God provided a plant that, if eaten with faith that God provided a cure, would turn them back into humans. I'm still working on whether or not they need to be "saved" spiritually before they can eat the plant, though because I'm trying not to make it like taking communion saves/forgives one of their sins. In this example, the other races have to become human to be "saved" but, like I said in my first post, saying that all other races have to be saved the human way, or become human to be saved, can be offensive to a non-Christian audience. Again, I guess the only way to solve this is to get more specific in your story.

Author:	Neil of Erk [ March 16th, 2010, 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
If you have to races which do not descend from a common ancestor, you run into some problems. When Adam sinned, the universe was saturated with evil. Nothing was untouched. I believe that the same scenario applies to fantasy worlds. (Basically, God isn't relative, so his laws can't be.) So, I solve the problem in this way: The souls of the race which has not sinned remain clean. However, their material being is subjected to evil. Their material body will die, but they will not be subject to the second (true) death. But if a member of this race sins and needs forgiveness, what about becoming sojourners? In the OT, non-Hebrews could be inducted into Hebrew culture. What if these sinners can be inducted into Christianity in the same manner. They will never quite feel or be treated the same as those who are of the same race as the savior, but his grace will apply to them through this process. Thanks for asking this question! I just figured out a bunch of problems for myself.

Author:	Timotheus [ March 16th, 2010, 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Thank you! I really like your solution. It makes sense, because even though animals didn't sin, they are subject to death. By the way, do you think animals evolved to have sharp teeth (they wouldn't have needed sharp teeth to eat grass and fruit before the fall, and because God said everything was good, I don't believe there was death before Adam's sin, thus making all the animals herbivores). Your solution really frees my mind to writing other races, which is cool. Now if I could learn to make cool ones like Lady E, I'll be all good.

Author:	Neil of Erk [ March 16th, 2010, 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Timotheus wrote: Thank you! I really like your solution. It makes sense, because even though animals didn't sin, they are subject to death. By the way, do you think animals evolved to have sharp teeth (they wouldn't have needed sharp teeth to eat grass and fruit before the fall, and because God said everything was good, I don't believe there was death before Adam's sin, thus making all the animals herbivores). Your solution really frees my mind to writing other races, which is cool. Now if I could learn to make cool ones like Lady E, I'll be all good. I don't believe animals evolved anything, if by "evolved" you mean macro-evolution. You may be interested to know that Lemurs have sharp teeth: Which they use to cut open thick skinned fruit. In fact, Answers in Genesis offers a lot of evidence that even sharp toothed creatures like big cats may have used their teeth eating more difficult plants.

Author:	Lord Kieren Mimetes [ May 28th, 2010, 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
Giant Pandas have sharp teeth as well. I have never thought of this before... I will probably go with the gene pool suggestion. In my world there are four intelligent races. Gryphins, Aerwythe, humans, and Kundinoua all came from the same ancestor. Aerwythe only changed over time by variation through the gene pool. Kundinoua came to be by over-exposure to a substance with strange properties. I think that Gryphins will have been given intelligence after man sinned, so when it happened, they were just dumb animals. Like what happened in real life, the animals fell because Adam had been given dominion over them and he fell. I can't seem to remember how the creatures in the Magician's Nephew fell when Digory brought Jadis into Narnia.

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Author:	Millardthemk [ February 27th, 2010, 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Salvation
nods Aye, tis true. Just beware ye are not stating it in as a fact or putting the ideology in the readers mind. I think it a bit......strange to say that like, a web footed goblin came from the gene pool. face palms But tis your calls of course.