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The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
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Author:  Treskillard [ April 4th, 2011, 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
I used to use italics whenever my POV character was thinking, but then I read this article by editor Andy Meisenheimer and it ... well ... changed my thinking:

http://chipmacgregor.typepad.com/main/2 ... or-at.html

Here's some of his reasons why NOT to use italics for interior monologue:

• You’re *already* in the person’s head. Andy says “That’s the beauty of the limited 3rd person POV: the character’s voice is integral to the narration”
• Some consider italics harder to read
• From the 15th edition of the Chicago Manual of style on, italics is no longer an option for interior monologue ... either quotes or nothing.
• It can appear to the reader as authorial intervention: “Look here, see what I’m doing?” (a quote from Andy).

Anyways, I thought I'd start a debate. What do you use? :)
Author:  Leandra Falconwing [ April 4th, 2011, 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Interesting...I think I may have seen a similar argument before, but I can't remember where. I know when I'm doing first person, I try to not have italicized thoughts, but that's quite different from third.

I think I would want to see some examples of a smooth switch from third-person narration to first-person thoughts without the italics. I'm not particularly surprised it can be done, but I want to see it anyway. Perhaps I should try writing a little section with that...

Oh, and I don't care of the Chicago Manual of Style says that it's appropriate to use quotes to set off interior monologue, I will think it's being spoken out loud if I see quotation marks. :P
Author:  The Bard [ April 4th, 2011, 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
I can't stand the italics thing. It always annoys me, for the above reasons. And plus I just find it corny.
Author:  Aemi [ April 4th, 2011, 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
I think it is a choice of the author. Whatever truly looks and feels best.
Author:  Lady Elanor [ April 4th, 2011, 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Personally I like to use italics when writing thoughts. Otherwise the thought of that person is lost in the rest of the writing. It sets it apart; whenever I see italics in a book I immediately associate it as the person's thoughts. It's an interesting topic though; thanks for sharing! :D
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ April 4th, 2011, 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
It really depends what I'm doing.

Most recently I've been trying to avoid using direct thoughts anyway, I'd rather be very visual: if it's a feeling, I'd rather create a word picture of it; and if it's an actual thought I'd rather see if I can get away without it entirely or else show it visually through the character's actions and expressions/feelings. It's a fallback to film, which is my favorite artistic medium. XD

If I must, I will do direct thoughts. Then I'll do one of two things: use italics (sorry, if I see quotations, it means it's out loud), or assimilate the thought into the narrative voice, thereby avoiding italics.

Of course, everything changes for screenplays... I'm still finding my way around in the screenplay formatting world. XD
Author:  Aragorn [ April 4th, 2011, 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
This topic has come up in the past (Character Thoughts), but only as a matter of personal preference.

I have yet to see an author switch from past tense third person narrative to present tense first person thoughts in a way that was not jarring and occasionally annoying, even when executed by professional and otherwise exceptional writers.

An argument for no present tense first person thoughts (italicized or not) in a third person past tense narrative would make more sense. I have even been experimenting writing without the use of present tense first person thoughts.
Author:  Treskillard [ April 5th, 2011, 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Jonathan ... that's exactly what I do. I just keep the thoughts in 3rd person past tense, and it seems to work wonderfully. All the transitions to and from 1st person are completely gone and it flows really nicely ... nothing jarring for the reader at all, either visually or in pov.

I agree, though, that this is still a personal preference, much like 1st vs. 3rd person. I just know that when I began writing I thought there was no other option for interior monologue when writing in 3rd person.

I would provide a sample from my own writing but a good one is hard to find ... I can slip in and out of thoughts so easily that it doesn't become this "big block" of text that I can pull out and say "here are some thoughts."

Here's a challenge, just to see what you all think, and just for fun: the first three samples that are posted with interior monologue, I'll rewrite into 3rd person without italics and we'll compare. Make sure you format the samples correctly using italics so the change will be obvious.

-Robert :book:
Author:  Bethany Faith [ April 5th, 2011, 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
I use italics to describe the thoughts of my character, but I am also sure to tell the reader that it's the character thinking. I don't particularly mind when I read a book with italics either...so...I suppose it is all a personal preference thing.

Bethany Faith
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ April 5th, 2011, 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Don't know if this counts, but ... *eagerly hands excerpt*


A sharp pain burned in my left leg. I opened my eyes and felt rain on my face, washing away the blood that coated my right cheek. My wrists and shoulders ached from being cruelly bound for so long.
Where –
Right. Staked down outside Andun's camp.
I raised my head and fought through a wave of nausea. My head felt so heavy…
Of course it does. My braid is soaked. When that thing gets wet, it weighs sixty pounds.
I tried to reason my way out of the weakness that was in actuality a result of the growing patch of crimson on the leg of my breeches, but in my heart I knew I wouldn’t be able to last much longer.
Someone’s long fingers dug into my shoulder. I glanced up and saw Iri kneeling beside me. I clenched my teeth to keep back a scorching string of curses he certainly deserved. I hated him.
Fax jerked awake beside me and sent Iri a glare that made up for the curses tenfold. “What are you doing with my brother?”
“It’s none of your business.” Iri’s knife sliced through the rope around my ankle. “He’s wanted.”
A chill of fear scraped down my back. Wanted?
Aaron’s hoarse voice held a hint of a smile. “You’re wanted, Iri.”
“Really?” Iri sneered. “By who?”
“You’re being followed.”
Iri dragged me upright. The throbbing pain flared up with renewed force, and I didn’t hear Aaron’s next words. In fact, I didn’t hear or see anything clearly for quite a while. Almost wish I was one of those humans so the pain would be at least more bearable…
When things finally did clear a little, Iri gave me a shove that sent the world into another tailspin. ‘Fax called to me. “Hawk?”
My heart seemed to rip in two. I’m ‘wanted’. Will I ever see him again?
“I’ll be all right, ‘Fax!” I called over my shoulder.
All of us knew it was an empty promise.
Author:  Treskillard [ April 5th, 2011, 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
This one was fairly easy because you're already writing in 1st person. All I had to do was change present tense to past and add very minor rewordings. This version shouldn't require any italics. Remember, in 1st person, you're always in the head of the POV character. (Also, I added double paragraph breaks where I think they belonged just to improve readability. The forum's little editor window made it hard for me to tell.)

Again, this is just a fun exercise to see what you all think.

----------------------------------------

A sharp pain burned in my left leg. I opened my eyes and felt rain on my face, washing away the blood that coated my right cheek. My wrists and shoulders ached from being cruelly bound for so long.

Where – ?

Right. I was Staked down outside Andun's camp.

I raised my head and fought through a wave of nausea. My head felt so heavy. But of course it did. My braid was soaked. When that thing got wet, it weighed sixty pounds.

I tried to reason my way out of the weakness that was in actuality a result of the growing patch of crimson on the leg of my breeches, but in my heart I knew I wouldn’t be able to last much longer.

Someone’s long fingers dug into my shoulder. I glanced up and saw Iri kneeling beside me. I clenched my teeth to keep back a scorching string of curses he certainly deserved. I hated him.

Fax jerked awake beside me and sent Iri a glare that made up for the curses tenfold. “What are you doing with my brother?”

“It’s none of your business.” Iri’s knife sliced through the rope around my ankle. “He’s wanted.”

A chill of fear scraped down my back. Wanted?

Aaron’s hoarse voice held a hint of a smile. “You’re wanted, Iri.”

“Really?” Iri sneered. “By who?”

“You’re being followed.”

Iri dragged me upright. The throbbing pain flared up with renewed force, and I didn’t hear Aaron’s next words. In fact, I didn’t hear or see anything clearly for quite a while. I Almost wished I was one of those humans so the pain would be at least more bearable…

When things finally did clear a little, Iri gave me a shove that sent the world into another tailspin.

‘Fax called to me. “Hawk?”

My heart seemed to rip in two. I’m ‘wanted’. Would I ever see him again?

“I’ll be all right, ‘Fax!” I called over my shoulder.

All of us knew it was an empty promise.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ April 5th, 2011, 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Wait, but Lady E's was in First person. What about third person and italics? *is confused now*

I have italics in my book, but they are a first draft peculiarity. Eventually they will be edited out and 'shown' to the reader.

(I think that putting thoughts within quotes is very jarring - it makes you think of dialogue and messes that flow up, IMHO)

eruheran
Author:  Aragorn [ April 5th, 2011, 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
eruheran wrote:
I think that putting thoughts within quotes is very jarring - it makes you think of dialogue and messes that flow up, IMHO.

I agree.
Author:  Lady Vilisse Mimetes [ April 5th, 2011, 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
*digs around in files* here's a piece from an old draft of my sci-fi novella... I don't write much internal dialogue, but this was in 3rd person, so I thought I'd drop it in :)


Crios jogged through the trees, he was running on a downhill slope heading in the direction of Nysa. It should be a little bit further this way. He said to himself. His boots made a squishing sound as he ran on the newly saturated ground. Soon the trees thinned out and he approached the edge of the forest. What he saw astounded him. The city of Nysa was gone and there was no sign that it had even been there. Who could have destroyed the city and left no trace of it? He asked himself.

Crios wandered out onto the large field where Nysa would have stood. Looking around he realized that there had been a large city there, at least a few miles wide. As he was looking around his foot hit something. Bending down Crios picked it up; it was a piece of metal with something written on it. Crios brushed away the dirt and ash that covered it and was able to read the inscription, Nysa Literary Institute; built fo… He fingered the piece, thinking about what to do next. There’s no doubt about this being Nysa. He thought.
Author:  Treskillard [ April 5th, 2011, 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Yes, I tend to think of this issue as more of a 3rd person POV issue, but it appears that someone writing in 1st person has the issue, too ... but then it becomes a present tense vs. past tense issue and is less complicated. Still, the reader has to shift in and out just like with dialogue.
Author:  Treskillard [ April 5th, 2011, 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Does anyone have a 3rd person example with italics for me to try my hand at? :D
Author:  Leandra Falconwing [ April 6th, 2011, 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Vili posted one a couple posts up, actually.

I've been looking through some of my stuff, and mostly I'm seeing occasional italicized thoughts far apart from each other. I haven't found any one section yet with multiple thoughts.

On the other hand, if you don't mind doing something brief, I'm curious about what you'd do with this bit of writing (and let me know if you need more background):

The pain kept coming and coming—how long did it take to die like this? Kennith was sure he was going to start screaming any minute now. Terach…oh, Terach, I’m sorry, I’m sorry for everything I ever did to you…and for dragging you into this situation.
Author:  Treskillard [ April 6th, 2011, 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Vilissë ... oops ... I finally see it! We posted 3 minutes apart, so I missed yours without realizing it.

And Leandra Falconwing, thanks for pointing that out.

Unfortunately, I have to take off, so I won't get to these until tomorrow. Sorry!
Author:  Treskillard [ April 9th, 2011, 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Sorry everyone for the repeated delays ... I should get to this very soon!

:shock:
Author:  Treskillard [ April 11th, 2011, 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Vilissë,

Here is my try at converting this using the "no-italics". Let me know what you think:

----------------------------------------

Crios jogged through the trees, he was running on a downhill slope heading in the direction of Nysa. It was only a little further this way, he said to himself.

His boots made a squishing sound as he ran on the newly saturated ground. Soon the trees thinned out and he approached the edge of the forest. What he saw astounded him. The city of Nysa was gone and there was no sign that it had even been there.

Who could have destroyed the city and left no trace of it?

Crios wandered out onto the large field where Nysa would have stood. Looking around he realized that there had been a large city there, at least a few miles wide. As he was looking around his foot hit something. Bending down Crios picked it up; it was a piece of metal with something written on it. Crios brushed away the dirt and ash that covered it and was able to read the inscription:

Nysa Literary Institute; built fo…

He fingered the piece, thinking about what to do next.

There was no doubt about this being Nysa.

----------------------------------------

This example shows a few interesting things ...

(1) you can still say "he said to himself" or "he thought" (or she, etc.) ... there is no rule against this, and sometimes brings clarity to the fact that you are showing a more direct thought. Still, the thought doesn't need to be italicized as long as you keep it in past tense.

(2) The inscription, which is really not an internal thought, could stay italicized. That is a perfect use of italics. Foreign words also work well when italicized.

(3) Sometimes what you italicize as an internal thought isn't in 1st person present tense, like "Who could have destroyed the city and left no trace of it?" ... which means that no change is required. Just remove the italics.

Everyone's thoughts appreciated. :dieshappy:

-Robert
Author:  Treskillard [ April 11th, 2011, 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Leandra Falconwing,

Here's my reworking. Let me know what you think.

----------------------------------------

The pain kept coming and coming—how long did it take to die like this? Kennith was sure he was going to start screaming any minute now.

Terach…oh, Terach, how could he show his sorrow? He was sorry for everything he'd ever done to him. For dragging him into this situation.

----------------------------------------

This one is tougher, and is another good example. I have changed it to "non-italics" but this one points out the limit of "non-italics" as well as its flexibility. In this case I would actually use the direct thought and keep it italics. Why? Because really strong emotions can pack more punch directly in 1st person present. Such as laments or declarations of love.

The nice thing with the "non-italics" way of writing is that when you come to those really special, rare moments where you really want something to stand out ... then and only then should you switch to a direct thought and put it in italics. And it will have much more punch precisely because you don't litter every page of your manuscript with italics.

BUT ... you can still show strong emotion without italics. Here's an example from MERLIN'S SHADOW:

----------------------------------------

Merlin shook his head. This wasn’t how it was supposed to end. What if she died while he was gone? He would never see her again. It would mark the ultimate failure of his charge over her—and if that happened he would never forgive himself. Maybe he should stay. Let Bedwir lead Arthur’s rescue. How could he ever face Natalenya’s mother and tell her he’d left her to die? How could he ever face himself again? He had failed her, and now what was he to do?

Natalenya sat up, and the pain could be seen in the creased lines on her face. She took hold of his elbow and pulled him close. “Go,” she whispered, “Go and rescue Arthur if it’s the last thing you do. They need you. Arthur needs you. I’ll be all right. Colvarth will take care of me. God will take care of me. No matter what happens.”

He embraced her, blinking his eyes to keep them clear and holding his breath. “We’ll come back,” he choked out. “I—I—”

“No promises. Now go.”

----------------------------------------

Any thoughts appreciated! :book:

-Robert
Author:  Leandra Falconwing [ April 12th, 2011, 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Thanks! I really appreciate your comments, especially since I had no idea of how that could be easily changed. I expect I'll keep it with the italics, since I do agree that it's stronger that way, but I think I may try doing a full re-write of that section some time to see if I can do it powerfully but without italics.
Author:  Treskillard [ April 14th, 2011, 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Sure. The main thing is just to know that avoiding italics is just another tool in the ole toolbox. :)
Author:  Svensteel Mimetes [ July 6th, 2011, 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
I was thinking... I will use italics for thoughts, it sets it apart from dialog. No "quotation marks."
Author:  Aemi [ July 6th, 2011, 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
I agree with Mr. Treskillard, that you don't need to separate internal dialog from the narrative with italics, if you are using first person POV.

Also, I don't think it is necessary to "use italics and quotation marks at the same time, when depicting internal dialog."

And I never refer to myself as "she", so I never have do this:
She ran through the woods, gasping for the thin air. Could she get there in time? she thought.

She would think Can I get there in time?

But if you want to do it without italics:
She ran through the woods, gasping for the thin air. Could she get there in time?
Author:  Svensteel Mimetes [ July 6th, 2011, 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Precisely. Italics are for going inside people's minds and having them say it. Showing rather than telling.
Author:  Treskillard [ July 7th, 2011, 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
Aemi, you're "right on" with your example:

Quote:
She ran through the woods, gasping for the thin air. Could she get there in time?


That is the perfect way to avoid italics, and it works in 3rd person because you can write 3rd person like you are always in their heads, thus always showing rather than telling.

The nice thing is that, when you can accomplish "no-italics" it doesn't jar the reader back and forth from 1st person to 3rd and from italics to non-italics. Yes, they have to do this with dialogue, but why should there be three modes for them to jump between? Two simplifies it, and the page looks much, much, much cleaner.

Again ... this is just another tool for a writer. Sometimes italicized 1st person internal thoughts is the best choice, but I've found I can avoid it 95% of the time.

-Robert :wave:
Author:  Lady Abigail Mimetes [ July 17th, 2015, 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The use of ITALICS for interior monologue
:? hrm.... I almost always use italics for thought, unless I'm writing first person, then there's just snarky narrator comments...

*conundrum* ._.
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