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Unfallen World
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Author:  Lady Vilisse Mimetes [ March 25th, 2011, 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Unfallen World
A while back, Rei pointed out something in my world's history. I have thousands of years before the first "evil" race enters the world. This raised a question. What if for those thousands of years, the world had yet to fall (like, Adam and Eve's fall)? In fact, what if my Satan figure had yet to fall? What if there had been years of bliss?

I'm really just looking for insight, ideas and opinions on this. Nothing's set in stone and I'd really like the help of my HW friends :)


EDIT: This is merely for historical purposes, I'm not writing a story set during this time.
Author:  Whackem [ March 25th, 2011, 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
Well...... It would seem to me that a perfect world would get kinda boring. No war to spice things up, no ancient ruins of forgotten civilizations cause everyones been around forever and never forgot anything. There's no good guys or bad guys there's just guys. No trouble in which the truly great can rise up and shine. No evil to vanquish... Plus when the evil race does come none of the good guys know how to fight having never heard of war.
Author:  Celearas [ March 25th, 2011, 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
Yeah, I agree. "Things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to..."
Everyone's just... perfect. And happy. And peaceful. There's no outside conflict and really no inside conflict; there's no reason to struggle over what's right and wrong because wrong doesn't exist. And what's able to make life sweet and purpose-driven if there's nothing bad to provide contrast or conflict?
Is it possible to write a story in a perfect world? Maybe. I don't know. It'd be extremely difficult.
If you just want it to be a distant past, characters talk about, yeah, go for it. It'd be cool, and raise some interesting questions; what's there to live for in a Utopia, do people actually have friends if they have nobody who's not their friend? Interesting party questions abound.
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ March 25th, 2011, 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
I agree. I think you could use a long phase of "unfallen world" in your history effectively. There are a lot of interesting questions you could hypothesize over, a lot of discussions you could raise - in the present.

However, I agree that writing about a perfect world could be difficult. Besides the theology (what is perfect? What does perfect feel like? Can a fallen human really write about perfection?), there is the lack of conflict. The core of many books revolves around the fight for good and evil. In an unfallen world, the humans don't have that like we know it now - but there is the temptation to fall.

I am no theologian, but it seems to me that there was conflict in Eden. Satan had fallen, temptation existed, and Adam and Eve had the choice to sin & fall. That's a very interesting quandary that might be worth exploring.

I, personally, wouldn't attempt to write about perfection in great detail, simply because I, as a human, have such a poor sense of perfection. But I do think it would make an interesting phase to include in your world's history.
Author:  Reiyen [ March 25th, 2011, 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
Lack of conflict and theological issues aside, the historical results of having an unfallen civilization for ages on end are impressive. The results are so impacting that most authors, including God as author of history, have a ditch method that helps alleviate some of the issues: flood the place.
Some people speculate that civilization was super advanced before the flood, although why it would then make sense to have Noah build the ark out of wood I do not know. The Flood would wipe away any signs of advancement and reboot civilization. For Tolkien, he made Numenor and Beleriand sink away. All he had left was what he wanted: a line of kings that lived for hundreds of years, tobacco plants wherever he needed them, ancient lore to which to refer, ancient lore to explain awesome structures like the walls of Minas Tirith, but really, all he had was an echo of the distant past.
If an unfallen civilization is allowed to exist for thousands of years, imagine the possibilities. Look where we have come in approximately 4000 years since the flood, from gopherwood to the Titanic, from mud and tar for the Tower of Babel to steel for buildings scraping the clouds, and that is through catastrophes like the Black Plague, WWI and WWII, the Civil War, the Crusades, the Fall of Rome, Mongol invasion, Viking raids, enslavement. None of those would have been around in an unfallen world.
But there is awesome possibility I just realized. Supposing you have this awesome civilization, and then the fall. There will be no medicine, no defense systems, no repair teams, no police... nothing. They will be completely unprepared for the evil that will be unleashed. You may not even need a flood then to wipe away what remains of the ultra-civ, and then you can get everything Tolkien had: a few with lore remaining, some people who live almost forever, and maybe even tobacco plants if you really really need them for some reason.
Author:  Celearas [ March 25th, 2011, 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
Well actually, disasters and wars are precisely what's made us advance so much. The Crusades connected the world, and gave the Spanish the desire to explore the world to get the lovely spices and fabrics they saw. They birthed the Age of Exploration, and by extension, the Renaissance. The World Wars advanced planes hugely. The German planes rocked the world, but we wouldn't have had them if they hadn't made them to bomb innocent cities. The south established itself because of slavery. As much as what happened to the Aztecs and Native Americans stunk the world up, it did allow more settlers to come and build America.
I'm not saying you're wrong and a perfect society couldn't be hugely advanced, I'm just saying wars and catastrophes have aided advancement so much. People learn just to learn, make just to make, but when you're pushed, forced to learn or make to save your life or country, that's when you really work, completely devote yourself. People run for fun or to lose weight, but when they run the fastest is when they're trying to get away from a bear or crazy many-tentacled thing.
And YES, in terms of the society being completely unprepared for anything bad, you are right on.
Author:  Lady Vilisse Mimetes [ March 25th, 2011, 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
Just to clarify, I'm not going to writing a story set in this time ;) it's purely for historical purposes.

How I'm looking at it for the moment (a slight knowledge of my world would help in understanding this ;))
When Attensie made the world, he set on the land one race; the Ashtains. This of course, was after he created the E'shawnti. There's another story I've yet to write on how my world was actually created. Homa was the first Ashtain. He "lived" for ~110,00 years (1,319,030 yurga). For the first 20-25 "leaders" of the Ashtains, the world was unfallen. If I had to give you a number, I'd say this period was around ~1-1.2 million years.
After these 1-1.2 million years, Natorii rebelled. This was when the fall finally happened. From this fall, Natorii lead Ashtains astray and other evils entered the world. Other races were born, one was "made" by Natorii specifically to destroy the Ashtains; Attensie's chosen and first born.
Now. I'm trying to figure out what happened during the first 1-1.2 million years. I have some vague thoughts on life styles, but would like to know what you guys think.

During my 1-1.2 million years I have people being "born" and "dying." Those who are born are literally gifts from Attensie. One child is given to a person. When a child and their parent reach a certain age/understanding/maturity, the parent is taken (by one of the E'shawnti) from the world to dwell with the E'shawnti and Attensie.
While in the world, all the Ashtains are of one accord. Like the verse in Acts where they shared everything with each other. Though there would be no needs and no money (money is the root of all evil ;))
The E'shawnti frequently appear in the world and at times Attensie does as well (after the fall of Natorii, these visits became less and less frequent, until they came not at all).
The Ashtains are not all knowing. This is partially why they are entrusted to another Ashtain at "birth" and why the E'shawnti visit.
I don't believe they would be advanced. (this is simply an echo of Celea's last post ;))


I think that's all I have figured out so far :P I'm still working on this and would really appreciate any insight you guys have :D :D
What I'm really trying to do is still reflect a Christian view on this kind of creation and beginning. This is not Earth, so things won't happen the same, but I don't want to contradict my faith in creating this.



PS. I have no plans to erase this race in one big event.
Author:  The Bard [ March 26th, 2011, 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
For some time in the Silmarillion the elves were un-fallen. Reading up on your Tolkien may help you with your research.
Author:  Lady Vilisse Mimetes [ March 26th, 2011, 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unfallen World
Joe Clemons wrote:
Reading up on your Tolkien may help you with your research.
Aye, it would. But sadly, I've little time for reading these days :? (writing, art and school demand my time)
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