I don't know if this is the right place but here we go.
My brother has been freaking out about my writing because he thinks Dragons represent Satan!
What do you guys think about this? And does it affect the way you write about Dragons?
Ana

Hm, interesting point, Ana. I hadn't thought about that.
I don't believe dragons represent Satan, in fact I think dragons were once a real creature, or perhaps something very similar once existed. Otherwise, why all the legends of dragons from around the world? China, Wales, Europe and many others have folk tales, etc. about dragons.
In my story, dragons can choose to be either good or evil, depending often on the choice of their rider. They don't ultimately represent anything, being only a creation of Quintor (God).

I can see what you mean.

Often we associate darkness, fire and shadow with evil. Dragons can sometimes be associated with those three things, also, so I can see why some may consider them "evil".

In my world, dragons are sentient beings who are all capable of choosing whether to be "good" or "evil". They are not all evil and not all are good. Each dragon must make decisions for itself.

Edit: oops, sorry for the wacky spelling and grammer in the first sentence.

I don't think dragons are evil at all, and being animals they really only do what they know how to do, or obey the orders of their masters (if they have any).

Thou hast hit it! Truly, the bible uses many metaphorical expressions. We often refer to the battle of good and evil as the battle of "light" and "dark." But darkness isn't evil in itself, it is simply an expression we use, a way to visualize something else.

That is the explanation of "dragon." Satan is called a "dragon" because he shares attributes with the creature that the term "dragon" inferred at the time.

It would be impossible to be doing wrong by having dragons in your story, because God has/had dragons in this world. Period.

Of course, many times our stories have dragons that are dissimilar to the real dragons (sapient, etc.), and we need to take that into consideration. But remember: fauns, centaurs, satyrs, fairies, trolls, elves, and all the other strange creatures are actually demons anyways in the stories of earth. So if you have fantastical animals at all, dragons are okay.

Dinosaur=dragon.

They are also called the wyrmcynnes (Wyrm kind) in Saxon (Old English), for your information.

I was talking with a man I respect very much on this subject, and he brought up something quite interesting. The hebrew word that was translated 'serpent' or 'dragon' actually has no english equivalent. translators simply had to come the closest that they could.

Thus, the dragon we read about in the Bible is probably not much like the english version of the dragon. also, if you look at the wide varieties of dragons from around the world, which dragons are supposed to be evil, and which ones aren't?

Well, the Bible describes them very well (see Leviathon and Behemoth), so we have a pretty good idea.

Yes, but those aren't necessarily dragons. They are just awesome beasts. Besides, neither of them sound anything like the typical dragon we see nowadays.

Well, let me ask you this question. What is a dragon?

I'm homeschooled, and the homeschool families in my area like to make what we call "co-ops". Now, I know this sounds completely off-subject, but bear with me; it has a point. For those who don't know, our co-ops consist of several families getting together, usually about one day a week, and having grade-regulated classes (although several grades are usually mixed together.)
One year, my dad guest-taught a lesson in one of the classes, an "omnibus" class, literally covering most everything. The lesson he taught was on the books of Tolkien. In the treasure trove of knowledge, he brought up dragons. Tolkien's dragons were evil, there is no doubt in that. Looking back at the history, there is possible reason for this. The Anglo-Saxon word "wyrm", meaning "dragon", also means "serpent", which was the original term for the form that Satan took in Eden. "Serpent" has only recently come to mean "snake", and I believe that Satan may have turned into a dragon in Eden. Basically, I believe that dragons may have been (might be?) real creatures that were at least used for evil. Are they evil? I don't know. Cats aren't evil, although they were once massacred because people believe cats were the evil familiars of witches. However, dragons represent something that is evil in our world, and I worry about attempting to change the representations of something ingrained in our minds. If dragons are good in a book, I don't have a problem with it, because I had another co-op class that taught me how to recognize the "secondary reality" of a fictional book. However, many people do not recognize it. Many children who ready fantasy do not recognize it.
Therefore, in my writings, dragons are evil. I am not saying that this is the only way to portray them, it is just my way. If you make it this far, thanks for reading!

Elestar, I believe most people actually DO recognize the secondary reality of fiction. In fact, children are so bombarded by it that the secondary reality has actually altered the culture interpretation of certain creatures, dragons being part of this circumstance.

The question is, why was the creature originally interpreted one way, and what bearing does that have on the current interpretation?

The original purpose, so far as I've investigated, of the use of the term "dragon" to refer to the devil is purely cultural. In past times the dragon developed as a symbol of evil in western and middle eastern culture, and so it followed logically to use the term.

Historically speaking, I think the use of dragons to represent evil likely results from the fact that the dinosaurs of the past which most closely resembled serpents and modern dragons were carnivorous, and probably killed quite a few people in the past. There is even reason to believe that dinosaurs (namely Leviathan) could breathe fire, or at least had extremely hot breath, which would probably seem very devilish to the superstitious.

The Bibles use of the term "dragon" is generally interpreted as a metaphorical use, using a term that would carry the idea properly to the people who read the Word.

Also, it should be noted that if one wishes to avoided making dragons good for purely cultural reasons, be aware that most youth these days read stories (notably Eragon and Twilight) in which creatures generally used as evil have been made good, and culturally speaking, this may soon drown out the former use of such creatures as metaphors of evil.

(It should also be noted that I do not believe that vampires should ever be portrayed as evil, because they survive on blood, but that's a different thought for a different time.)

This is a really interesting topic, one that I would like to learn more about.

Everyone is discussing dragons almost like they are common animals (example; "Modern Dragons"). What do you mean by this term?

The behemoth from the Bible is thought to be a dinosaur, but here it is referenced as a dragon. It didn't breath fire, and it had no wings, and it was said to be a plant eater. The leviathan was said to breath fire, but some sources that I have read stated this as a poetic exaggeration. What does everyone else here think? Are the Biblical and medieval "dragons" actually dinosaurs?

Am I just confusing matters by asking these questions? I think that I am only restating what everyone else here said. I am just trying to clear this up a little, 'cause I'm really confused.

Like I mentioned earlier, what do we mean when we say 'dragon'? This is important to clarify.

Now, the word 'dinosaur' was coined in comparatively recent times by Sir Richard Owen (in the 1800s). Before that time, the animals now referred to as dinosaurs were referred to as dragons, serpents, or wyrms. When you look at the ancient documents describing these creatures (not stories or fictional tales: historical documentaries) you will see that dragon=dinosaur.

Now, in fantasy fiction, the word dragon has come to mean somewhat more than its earthly meaning. This fantasy creature generally includes wings, fire, sapience, etc. Now, many of these attributes were present in several different kinds of dragons (such as the Wide-Flyer of the Saxons: it breathed fire, hoarded gold, and had a massive wing-spread).

The funny thing is that the real dragons on earth are known to have been living in relative abundance during the times of the Bible that dragons are mentioned. They are mentioned right along with 'normal' animals such as owls, dogs, etc. There is no reason for us to assume that they were somehow figurative of something other than themselves.

I at least meant the dragons of modern literature.



I personally don't consider the leviathan to be a dragon, in the manner of the modern idea of dragons, but it certainly was a dinosaur. And remember, it was God who was speaking at that point in Job, so I would hesitate to accuse him of a poetic exaggeration. Besides, it doesn't say "fire" but merely that steam rises from his nostrils, giving many the impression that leviathan could breath fire.

Fire breathing dragon.

What do you mean by 'dragons of modern literature'?

I see! That's what I get for speaking about a passage before reading it. I usually tend to disagree with the interpretation of being a "dragon" though, because leviathan is described as living in water, in the passage where it says "the great deep."

By "the dragons of modern literature" I mean the common dragon that permeates literature today, specifically their body shape and mental capacity. Dragons usually resemble the dragons of the movie Eragon, and the mental capacity of people, though sometimes they are more intelligent than that. They can generally speak or communicate telepathically.

Personally, I view dragons in literature as exaggerations of the actual creatures, which I agree are dinosaurs. This exaggeration comes from legends, because legendary things are always seemingly greater than they actually are. Also, traveling bards during the middle ages would have wanted to make their dragons bigger and better than everyone else's. That said, once the dragon has been exaggerated enough, it becomes its own entity in a way. So the dragons of literature as they are used today are sufficiently separated from the original creature and imagery to, in my opinion, be free of the original image of creatures of evil. The "New Dragon" can be crafted to the author's designs; basically, dragons have been changed so much that you can do with them what ever you want.

Agreed.

I was reading an article the other day that implied that the fey folk (fairies) were historical! It was by Edward Thorstenberg printed in Yale Review 1:286-301, 1912. To summarize several pages of really interesting tidbits about various cultures and their legends of fairies he claims that the fairy were probably of Finn/Lapp/Ligurian descent. The areas most commonly featuring faerie in folk tales contain some ancient burial sites that house a race of very small people (usually under 5 feet tall) who were probably the origin of the tales. He also says that the Lapp people fit with many descriptions of fairies in the old stories such as: small stature, nature of their homes, cut and color of clothing, mode of living, including industries and occupations, and reputation as wizards. The Lapps were even said to have milked deer! (another seeming impossibility that fairies were said to perform.)

I love reading about this sort of stuff! I found the article in Ancient Man:A Handbook of Puzzling Artifacts by William R Corliss. Fascinating reading for any Creationist/global flood believer! Corliss isn't a believer, but he presents anecdotes from all over that really support the flood and man's constant decline since Eden. (think advanced technology in old rock layers etc.) I'd encourage anybody who's interested in that sort of information to look for it from your local library!

Raven

I have a tendency to think that the legends are more real than we give them credit for today.
The Bible does talk about fire breathing dragons after all!

This article explains how it would be possible:
Could God have really created fire breathing dragons?
Very scientific basis for fire breathing creatures!

Raven

I agree with White Raven, especially after reading "After the Flood." This is a must read for every reader, whether or not you are interested in history, creation science, dragons, or anything like that. How would you like to know that Beowulf was a true story?

I was looking this up to request it from our library
and found a link to read it online!! Looks fascinating.
You can read it here:

http://ldolphin.org/cooper/contents.html

Raven

It would be cool if Beowulf were real. I had to (I like to say I was forced) read it for school. The action and adventure were cool, like fighting the dragon, but the author used a lot to say a little.

I was at the museum of natural history the other day, and they had a almost complete (real) apatosaur skeleton (at least i think that was what it was). I personally thought it fit the description of behemoth, and most of it's bones were still incredibly strong after hundreds of years dead, like "tubes of brass", and a huge tail which would be gigantic if fleshed, like "a cedar trunk". It was incredibly eye opening.

Two thoughts crossed my mind when I saw it.
1) I can see why people see dinosaurs as dragons of old (I could see it being very frightening in the flesh, as opposed to bone), and
2), how can anyone believe in evolution with such a living engineering marvel like this?

Although this has nothing to do with dragons, I just felt the need to share this.

Ok. If I get rather too dogmatic here, then please let me know and I will edit accordingly. My dragons are very near and dear to my heart.

dinosaur (if I am correct) means terrible lizard. And when I think of a dinosaur I think This ...http://colourware.files.wordpress.com/2 ... ica1.jpg...


Dragon (in my mind) is a fantasy term. It is a sometimes magical beast (perhaps related to the above dinosaur) that can fly, breathe fire, hypnotize, and hoards treasure. This is my idea of a dragon... http://media.photobucket.com/image/drag ... gon002.gif ...

A mere beast cannot be inherently evil, just as I do not believe that magic can be inherently evil! It all depends on how you use them, and what they stand for in the world in which they live. I have a book in which dragons are basically demons, and they work as messengers for the devil. But in a sequel to that book, some of them reject that calling, and become warriors for light...

It's kind of the same as a gun. Just because guns have been used to kill people doesn't make THEM evil. Does that make sense?

It is? No offense, but I view dragons as more like dinosaurs and *ahem* a lot less glittery. My dragons are somewhat like the ones in the Eragon movie, but substantially bigger and the males are quite a bit thicker.
Anyway, great point about animals not being inherently evil. I agree whole-heartedly.

Dinosaur is a technical term with a set meaning.

Dragon is a literary term without a set meaning.

Therefore 'dragon' changes with culture and context. In the Bible (KJV) dragon=dinosaur pretty much. In fantasy fiction, there are a lot of extra connotations. However, not all fantasy fiction writers use the same connotations (thankfully). So you cannot say that dragons always breathe fire, or that they always hypnotize. Etc.

Exactly. Because dragons are so varied, you can't call all of them evil.

Yes, exactly!

That whole idea probably comes from the reptilian serpant from the garden of eden , I think that there can be evil Dragons and good dragons. Just because they are mentioned being mostly evil does not mean they are all evil. I would not worry about it.

My brother was actually refering to the dragon in Revelation.

That's what I was thinking about. That came to my mind while I was writing the other post. Does it make turtles especially evil if they were signified in Revelation? Remember, it probably does not mean a real dragon; Just a symbol, like the sheep with eyes all over its body (not that THAT is especially good). I could be symbolized as a dragon, that does not make me evil. Or am I?

I see no reason why it's wrong to use Dragons in your fantasy stories for good. In my first elven fantasy I used dragons as good and I am in the process of writing my second elven fantasy in which some dragons will be good.

If fantasy is creating make-believe worlds, why not create creatures to act the way we want them to?

Moderator's Note: Fixed spacing and grammatical errors.

When did I say that? I thought I said that some of them could be, but not most. The idols and gods were most likely demons though, if that is what you mean.

Ah yes, I think those might be demonic. Haven't researched it much though.

My personally tendency is, rather than to assume demonic activity, is to assume that such imagery is a ingrained tendency. If preference for certain climates can be passed on (theory, not yet fact), then why not preference, or even inclination, towards imagery that was somehow more familiar in the past.

Imagine, for a moment, that fairy-like creatures were real. What if the "idea" was passed on, even if belief was not? People have always wanted to believe in something not unlike faeries, and the UFO sort of alien could just be the most recent cultural interpretation of a deeply ingrained concept.

Really? I'm afraid I misunderstood your post to a great degree.

I beg you pardon, sir. (Couldn't resist.)

Why is it I always come to the really good discussions months after its ended?

That's when you reawaken the good old posts.

I love doing that! Old threads are easily dug up here, fortunately!

I think you could use dragons to represent good or evil. It kind of depends on how you portray them.

For instance, if they aren't sapient, and they are created by God, wouldn't they be "good"? Because God created them, and all He makes is good.

If they were sapient, then you could have them choose whom they were going to serve, and use that to represent lots of things.

I had a great way to summarize this, but I have forgotten it. :P I will put it in if I remember it...