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Implied Nakedness
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Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ January 31st, 2011, 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Implied Nakedness
This is an interesting issue.
I first encountered it on the Nano forums. I was browsing the various novels in the designated forum (you know, where you offer to let people read and critique it?) and one that I picked to read had this in it's disclaimer. The author said he'd had people call him out for implied nakedness; ie: bath taking. I'm about halfway through the novel and it's very good, very clean, but it does on occasion have bath taking. The character (female) notices how dirty her clothes are, how filthy the bathwater is, etc. It doesn't bother me in the least.

But since it was mentioned in the disclaimer as a possible issue...

What do ya'll think? Do you have a problem with character who take their clothes off to go swimming or who take baths? Would you rather not hear about it at all? Obviously there's going to be more problems in a movie than a book, but question being, is it a problem in a book at all?
Author:  KathrineROID [ January 31st, 2011, 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I don't have a problem with a character in a tub or river, as long as taking clothes off isn't described. It just seems like an unnecessary invocation of the mind's eye. However, I also don't think that "implied nakedness" should be used excessively or when the scene doesn't serve a purpose.
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ January 31st, 2011, 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I have a visual personality so when I write I tend to act as if it were a movie scene. If a bath is deep enough there's not much immodesty in my mind's eye. If a bath is nothing special I treat it as such and perhaps only mention a bath in retrospect to a current scene.

The sad conundrum is in books like Perelandra. I love the writings of C.S. Lewis but with untainted nakedness being such a key to the theme we will sadly not see this book as a movie.
Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ January 31st, 2011, 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I haven't read that. :roll:

But yeah, in these examples we're not focusing on nakedness, it's just a part of the natural actions. Like drawing a sword. Like when someone in my family announces that they're going to go take a shower. *shrug*

But apparently some people have a problem with it. Hence the topic.
Author:  BushMaid [ January 31st, 2011, 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I don't have a problem with it. :) Not that I've read about anyone taking a bath before... but I don't imagine it would be a problem if I did! There's a lot worse things people can throw into a novel.
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ January 31st, 2011, 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Perelandra made me uncomfortable.

But then again, I was young and didn't understand the philosophizing of the book. Fifteen or sixteen was a little young, I should've been the age I am now. XD
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ January 31st, 2011, 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
@Bush: They took baths in Lord of the Rings.

@Mel: I read it younger and just kind of only saw the faces I guess. It all depends on the person I suppose.
Author:  BushMaid [ January 31st, 2011, 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
@Riniel: I haven't read 'Lord of the Rings'. :)
Author:  Pavalini [ January 31st, 2011, 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
This is a common worry among conscience-sensitive Christians: we don't want our writing's imagery to cause any reader to stumble, Christian or non-Christian. Yet we should strive to strike a note of realism. Cursing, nakedness, and other topics should be approached with utmost delicacy. We should write as though Christ would enjoy reading it.

Look at cursing, for instance. Now and then a nasty character pops up who likes to have a good swear now and then. Should we actually write the cuss words, or better yet, should we take God's name in vain?
Being fantasy writers, we can easily dodge this issue by inventing our own curse words (Homer invented "You sack of wine!" for The Iliad). But even if your writing isn't fantasy, you don't have to actually write those dirty lil' four-letter words. Instead, just say "The man went into a leaping rant, cursing everything in view and hopin' the roses bled on their own thorns." You don't have to actually write the curse-words themselves.

The same rule applies with nakedness, sex, or any other sensual scenario. You don't have to describe the nakedness. In fact, you don't even have to say the word "naked." Use softer words like "disrobed" or implying (not suggestive!) phrases like "he set his clothes in a neat pile then scurried into the pond."
If your story actually requires something truly graphic, like a sex scene, there's no reason to mention it. Let's say you're writing a story about a girl who gets pregnant by accident. You don't have to actually write the scene itself. Just write something like "Their relationship was always complicated, and when she told him she was expecting, it became too complex for him to bear." Even in this case, I try to avoid words like "pregnant," and instead use words like "expecting" or "with child."

In my book (a fantasy), there is a story about a young girl of noble birth who is betrothed to a noble prince. The noble prince is young and mean. He always set pranks on her and ruined her games. When his father informs him of the arranged marriage, the prince runs away from home and doesn't return for ten years. The noble girl was sweet-natured and had hardly a cruel thought, but she suspected the prince had died and was secretly (and somewhat guiltily) relieved she was spared from such a horrible marriage. However, ten years later, the prince returns a man, and according to the laws of the kingdom, the marriage document between them was revived, and they had to wed. That honeymoon night, the noble girl is weeping in bed, awaiting her new husband. She tries to pretend she's asleep when he finally enters, but her sobbing was too obvious. Terrified, she felt the mattress shift as he crawled in beside her, leans over her, kisses her on the cheek, then turns over and goes to sleep. Surprised, but relieved and grateful, she says nothing. This continues for a week. Each time she pretends to be asleep, and silently he kisses her on the cheek and falls asleep. Finally, on the seventh day, she awaits him sitting upright. He enters, and sits beside her, also upright. The two start talking. A deep, personal, and plain talk -- their fears and thoughts -- that night they bare their hearts to each other and fall in love. The next chapter is some weeks later, and the noble girl is expecting.

The sudden character transformation in the noble prince resulted from his decade-long travels, during which he became my metaphoric rendition of a Christian.

I was debating whether or not to put this in my book. However, I wanted to speak to a sex-crazed culture, and this scene reveals that there is a form of love which must come prior to sex. A man and woman must be united in heart before they are in body. And what I just wrote wasn't graphic. Very few would stumble because of it.

It's a delicate issue and certainly takes some mastery of the English language to play out correctly. But that tone of reality is important when speaking out to the real world.

Deo Volente,
Pavalini
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ January 31st, 2011, 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I love how straightforward you are, Pavalini. Thanks for that. :)
Author:  Elanhil [ January 31st, 2011, 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I don't really have a problem with it, as long as it isn't described, and if it is mentioned in passing. If the scene drags on, I get uncomfortable and thus distracted from the book. Also, y'all may or may not have read it, but there is a scene where she is bathed from jugs. And it was almost unnecessary. I didn't like that. If a bath is necessary, I definitely think it should be implied and only mentioned in passing.
Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ January 31st, 2011, 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
That was an awesome post, Pavalini. Thank you. I actually like that scene you described. It's very sweet and pure.

We all seem to be agreed here then, since that is my view also. Interesting thoughts, everyone. :D
Author:  Elanhil [ February 1st, 2011, 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Let me know how I can get my hands on that story, Pavalini. You sound like a great author.
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ February 1st, 2011, 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Elanhil wrote:
Let me know how I can get my hands on that story, Pavalini. You sound like a great author.


Same here. I really like that scene and now I'm wondering what the prince was up to for ten years.
Author:  Pavalini [ February 1st, 2011, 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Golly-gee, that's awful nice of you folks to say!

I'm afraid being a full-time college student working twenty hours a week prevents me from writing as often as I like. You will not likely see the afore-written scene for a very long time, as it is planned for the second installment of a trilogy, the first book of which I am far from completing.

I try to write thirty-minutes a day. This is a good habit, I find. It's small, but it's progress.

Thanks for the kind words! I don't tell anyone about my story (mostly because it is my favorite subject and I fear I might quickly bore my listeners -- or never stop talking), so to hear this from you guys (fellow fantasy writers to boot!) means more to me than you realize.

Deo Volente,
Pavalini

aka

Blake Edward
Author:  K. C. Gaunt [ February 1st, 2011, 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Calling someone for having a character take a bath seems a little hypersensitive. :? There's nakedness and implied nakedness in the Bible.

There is of course the problem of the mind's eye. If you must have a scene without clothed characters, maybe you could say something to focous the reader's attention to the head, like mention them pulling their hair out of their eyes. Just an idea, though. It doesn't have any scientific backing. :P

Also, if the scene is in water, that's not as much of a problem. Likely as not, the reader will only be seeing the head above the water.

I've read Peralandra. The lack of clothes admitedly made me uncomfortable, but I can see the reasoning behind it. Peralandra hasn't fallen to sin. Adam and Eve didn't have clothes either before the fall.

Just my two cents. ;)

- Terra
Author:  Calenmiriel [ February 1st, 2011, 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I am also not bothered by it. ^^;;

Obviously, no one takes baths with clothes on, so implying the fact that they are not wearing clothing is natural. Describing a character's body is vastly different story. That in itself could definitely lead to unwanted thoughts and imaginings.

The only time I describe anything about a character's bare skin is when there are scars or birthmarks, for example.

It's always good to keep in mind that our writing should be God-honoring. Though, I am aware that hard reality can be essential in some stories. :)

~Calen
Author:  Elanhil [ February 1st, 2011, 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I think we are all pretty much in mutual agreement. :rofl:
Author:  Reiyen [ February 3rd, 2011, 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I hate to spoil all of the mutual agreement, but nakedness, implied nakedness, whatever, in the Bible or out of it, makes me shake in my emotional boots. I just can't stand it. It goes straight into my head and a spiritual battle over what I am going to imagine in my head next ensues. I can't read books like that. This thread itself made my heart rate increase. I can't even read Biblical passages like that.

I really don't mean to spoil it for ya'll, but there are some of us who just can't survive it. It's too much.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't write it. Pavalini's scene was great, it just scared me. Go ahead and write it. After all, it is my choice to read or not to read. As long as you are comfortable writing it, write it. There is one exception though: there is something to be said for sensitivity. There are some things no one wants to read. But on a Christian site, I am just about 96.38% sure that nothing you want to write would breach that sort of sensitivity.
Author:  Elanhil [ February 3rd, 2011, 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Aw...so much for mutual agreement.

Anyways, Reiyen, I understand (and respect) how you feel the way you do. Sometimes when I'm done reading something I get nervous and wonder why I wasn't bothered. :?
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ February 3rd, 2011, 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I'd have to agree with Reiyen on this one, at least somewhat. I read Perelandra, and it didn't bother me, but that was because of the dialogue and everything around it. Personally, I find it uncomfortable when baths/clothes are mentioned in a book. Maybe it's just the way certain people think.

Pavalini, your post was VERY good - thanks for that.

Elanhil, you didn't tell us what book you were mentioning...

eruheran
Author:  Elanhil [ February 3rd, 2011, 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Well I couldn't think of anything specific, but now Mara, Daughter of the Nile comes to mind.
Author:  Lady Elanor [ February 3rd, 2011, 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I personally don't have a problem with it. However too much detail etc would definitely put me off. If it's modestly implied I don't mind it. :)
Author:  Reiyen [ February 3rd, 2011, 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Mara, Daughter of the Nile is a twisty book. It's one of those my mother was very careful when reading aloud.... that's a good example.
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ February 3rd, 2011, 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Hmm... Never even heard of this one...
Author:  BushMaid [ February 3rd, 2011, 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Reiyen wrote:
Mara, Daughter of the Nile is a twisty book. Its one of those my mother was very careful when reading aloud.... that's a good example.


I love that book. I forgot all about that part, I was so lost in the intrigue.
Author:  Arias Mimetes [ February 3rd, 2011, 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Everyone takes baths, and obviously you can't take a bath while fully dressed =P (well, you could... but it wouldn't do you much good)
As long as you don't describe everything, you're fine. Just say the person took a bath or whatever. I've told friends or family I needed to go take a shower and don't see what could be wrong with that.

Like someone mentioned before... the hobbits take baths in LOTR, and there is nothing inappropriate about that. Merry hears them singing, and that is pretty much all that is said.

Reiyen has a point, of course. Some people may struggle with such things. We should not include something that would make someone stumble, if possible.

On a side note... Pavalini, your story sounds great :D
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ February 7th, 2011, 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I'm more-or-less on the side of general consensus on this one. I think such topics can be handled decently, primarily by referencing them distantly and not putting too much focus on potential sensual elements. Pavalini's post was wonderful, I agree.

However, I would insert two extra points of caution. First, is the reference really necessary? I think they should be avoided at (almost) all costs. Fiction is not reality, and we have a distinct power to choose what bits of everyday life we include.

Second, consider your audience. Pavalini's book sounds pure, but it's sensual enough that I wouldn't recommend it for someone that isn't of the marrying age. What stage of life is your target audience in? What stage of life are you, as the author, in?

I have an idea floating around about a story whose MC is a young married woman written in first person. Because her husband also plays a role in the story, they naturally share affection. It's perfectly clean, and for a married woman to read and write, it wouldn't be an issue at all. But for me, it might be too much to write in such a personal, emotional style of 1st person with I's and me's, to put myself in the character's place. I'm not sure I can pursue this idea right now.

I'll freely admit that I irk myself when even clean and innocent references to bathing and such come into my books. As Reiyen said, the potential for visual images can be very high. I prefer to reference them very loosely, for the most part after-the-fact - "She made him scrub himself thoroughly in almost-scalding water and then sat him down to untangle his hair." Again, I think it should be avoided as much as possible.
Author:  Elanhil [ February 7th, 2011, 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Well, for some things, like after a long day of work in the fields, it would be kind of gross to describe the rest of the afternoon and send the guy off to bed without having a bath. What I would do is say: 'he took a hot bath and ate a meal then went off to bed.'
Author:  Lady Elanor [ February 7th, 2011, 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
The Little House on the Prairie books are some of the best family friendly books I have read, I will never forget my Dad reading them to us around the winter fire; they mention them taking baths but it didn't spoil it for me, it's just part of real life that doesn't bother me really as long as it is not explained in an immodest way. Saying the family took baths on Wednesday etc doesn't seem immodest to me although of course everyone is different and we are all at different stages with what we can accept and not accept. :)
Author:  BushMaid [ February 7th, 2011, 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Elanor wrote:
The Little House on the Prairie books are some of the best family friendly books I have read, I will never forget my Dad reading them to us around the winter fire; they mention them taking baths but it didn't spoil it for me, it's just part of real life that doesn't bother me really as long as it is not explained in an immodest way. Saying the family took baths on Wednesday etc doesn't seem immodest to me although of course everyone is different and we are all at different stages with what we can accept and not accept. :)


Oh yeah! Those books were awesome! Our Dad read them to us, too! :D It was just a way of life, and it didn't bother us at all... it was kinda interesting though, hearing how people had to take a bath back then, instead of running the tub or shower.
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ February 7th, 2011, 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
That works for me, Elanhil.

That's true. Sometimes in historical settings it's interesting to describe the process (not necessarily a person doing the process, though) for the educational value.
Author:  The Wolverminion [ February 7th, 2011, 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
I guess I have to be the third person to stray from the general concensus. But I'm off in the other direction from the other two.

I don't have a problem with it...or even non-implied stuff. I am extremely NON-visual, so I never see anything I read. However, there is of course a line. I have not and probably will not write an actual sex scene. The only situation in which I can imagine doing that is if the characters are married and it is very important to the plot. I am going to write a rape scene, though, but I don't give a lot of detail.

What I have done bothers some people, I know. My trilogy of thrillers deals a lot with prostitution, especially child sex trafficking, as well as other similar issues. I give enough of the disturbing details to make any sane reader outraged that this stuff happens in real life. That is my purpose in including it. During a torture scene, the female main character is stripped by the villain, but I use specially selected words to get a certain effect and make it obvious that I'm not lingering on the image.

In my 'werewolf fantasy series' (I still don't have a name for it) the werewolves have a very rough culture. Certain punishments involve stripping to the waist and whipping...for either sex. One of the main characters has an illegitimate daughter after being seduced by the villain. They are thoroughly messed up, but all for a point.

Other than the evil side of this subject, I don't have much. There's one scene in Circle of Three where Mariah takes a bath in a creek, and I use it as a time of reflection to get into her head. In Whisperer, the second of my three thrillers, one character makes the remark that he thinks 'music is much more exciting than sex.' It might not seem like an important detail, but it shows an important but subtle part of his character that has an effect on the following events.

You can pull all sorts of Bible verses on me, but this sort of stuff is in the Bible too, as someone pointed out.
Author:  Constable Jaynin Mimetes [ February 19th, 2011, 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Implied Nakedness
Inesdar, might I direct you to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2143&start=20

As well as the announcement on the subject? Both talked about both this, and the torture thread in context with the tricky subjects room.
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