Controversial topic alert!

This is really for fictional discussion only, and was brought about by some of my musings on the torture thread.

I have always been told that suicide is the same as murder. I have always disagreed, but never bothered to argue or investigate my own disagreement. But in a couple of my stories, I have character who commit suicide and I believe that not only are they justified, it's the right thing to do.

Take torture for example. If you're being held and tortured for information, isn't suicide the obvious way out? What about if your family is going to be tortured? (the most effective way of getting information.) If you're dead, you can't talk. If you're the only one with that information, then it is safe and whatever you were protecting is also safe, and no one else can be hurt on your account. In such a situation, is suicide wrong?

What about sacrifice? Is dying in another's stead suicide? I can't imagine refusing to do such a thing, and letting another die, but if suicide is murder, is it wrong? Of course, the thing to take into consideration is that blood will be shed either way, but it's something to ponder.

What about helping someone commit suicide? In a lot of cases, this is obviously murder. But there are some situations where it's not, isn't it? Like the torture one? Smuggling the prisoner poison or something?

Of course, this begs the question of when is murder right? I'm thinking about burning at the stake. If your friend is being burned at stake, and you're standing there with a revolver in your hand, is shooting him murder? Or mercy?

"Don't let me be taken alive." If someone makes you promise that, is killing him justified? (We're dealing with fantasy. We can invent horrible, horrible, non-escapable situations if we want to.)

What about murdering someone if you're not asked to? If he has information, and you know he'll tell under torture, and you can't afford to let that information out? (This is assuming he'll die anyway, of course.)

There is always the consideration that we can't know all ends. But if you can't take the risk?

Is that my cue to run like the wind?

Ok, since I'm first up to bat, I will do my best!

I think there is suicide, and then there is laying down your life for someone. Suicide, is killing yourself because you're low, or you think you're a loser, or you're just plain selfish and can't bear to live your life (no matter how horrible it is) because you don't have the will to change it.



Here's a verse to back this:

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

Jumping in front of a bullet to save someone else isn't suicide. You aren't thinking of your life, you're thinking of someone elses. The greatest command in the Bible is to love. Therefore, you are acting in love to save this persons life.

I believe helping someone commit suicide is a definite no-no. Same for murder, but with all these difficult situations you have posted, it is really hard to know what is right. I'll come back later when I think some more on it! (that is if I haven't already sparked a fire here!)

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up.

I have a lot of opinions on the subject, and have dealt with someone I know taking their life. I will make a valiant effort to get to a computer this evening. If not, I know I'll have one for about an hour tomorrow.

Thanks, Airianna.

I finally brought it up because I have characters who commit suicide and I portray it in a favorable light, even when sometimes the situation might be gray.

Like, what if it's not a direct act, like stepping in front of a bullet? What if it's a long, drawn out calculated process helped by a small amount of magical knowledge of the future?

Bushmaid, I agree completely. That's all very logical and biblical.

You need to watch the movie "Deja Vu".

This is a touchy topic, and I don't want to delve into it too deeply (looking forward to Airianna's post, though), but I will state my opinions briefly.

Laying down your life for another or a worthy cause is not suicide. It's sacrifice.

I believe in all other situations, suicide and assisted suicide are murder.

The situations you described are tough. But what of this angle? You don't know the future. Even if you're writing in a fantasy world where your character does know the future, you have to remember that your readers live in a world where they can't see the future. Only God can. You don't know what's going to happen in the next minute. You can never say with certainty that you won't be rescued, shown mercy, etc. What happens in the next second is out of your control - and as soon as you kill yourself, you've lost that opportunity.

You also don't have the peripheral vision that God does. You don't know how your life is affecting others. How are you to know that your refusal to talk under torture is impacting your captors? How do you know that you're not inspiring the prisoner next to you? How do you know that, while the guards are torturing you, they're leaving another post blank and allowing someone else to get past?

You don't know. You can't know. God does.

Suicide is selfish. Suicide is narrow-mindedness. Suicide is refusing to trust God.

Another thing to think about is how suicide devastates others. I have an older friend that is a widow because her husband took his own life. And she still loves him with all her heart.

That was very well said, Philly.

An important point my Mum drew my attention to, was that God is bigger than all of those difficult circumstances. God can step in for us if we let Him, but the devil corners us in this box-frame of mind, that the only way out is sacrifice, suicide, or murder. All these thoughts/motives/decisions are not based on the power of God.

I've read/heard several stories of people in fatal situations that have called on God and have been miraculously saved. God is bigger than all of our problems, and we needn't think that an act of violence can put things right.

Another point of view, anyway.

@Bush's last post -- Why's sacrifice in there next to suicide and murder? Thinking of multiple occurances of people who laid down their lives for others, mostly in the manner described above (taking a bullet meant for someone else). That's not an act of violence; that's taking an act of violence on yourself instead of allowing someone else to take it.

@main topic:

My kneejerk reaction is that of course suicide is wrong.

Thinking about it, there may be some slim cases once in a while where it is appropriate -- when you know that it'd save the lives of others. But typically this is only in magic/sci-fi situations where mind-reading is possible and key information that could kill people is at risk.

So my overall stance is: be careful how it's portrayed because it's never, never, never an answer to any kind of personal problem. (it's cowardly to try to escape by death) I just don't have situations like this because there is no need.**

As a side note, though, whenever I think of this subject, I remember the extremely hypothetical moral dilemma described briefly in the Silmarillion.

One of the stories is how Maedhros was rescued by his cousin. (really awesome story if you have the context -- the short version is that Maedhros' father Feanor had betrayed his half-brother and his family, dooming them to all kinds of hardship... and yet Maedhros' cousin went after him to rescue him from Morgoth)

Maedhros was hanging by a chain on his wrist on the sheer edge of a cliff. Noone could go up and get him, and no one could come down and pull him up. He was trapped, and on top of that he couldn't ever die, just be tortured, because his elvish body healed just fast enough to keep him alive and in constant pain.

His cousin (whose name I believe was Fingon but I could be wrong) found him, but could not reach him. Maedhros begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; having lost all hope. Fingon tried again to find a way, and finally gave up.

He stretched back his bow, but before he could shoot, a great eagle, who was stationed in Middle-earth to help the elves (a servant of the servants of Eru Illuvatar) stopped him and carried him up to Maedhros. When Fingon could still not get Maedhros loose, his cousin's mind was definitely not all there for instead of thinking of creative ways out, he begged Fingon to slay him. But instead, Fingon cut Maedhros' hand off to escape the chains.

Maedhros survived, to fight better with his left hand than with his right.

A case of divine intervention, but with neither a negative or positive slant on the issue. (interestingly, Maedhros was rescued even though he and his family were currently in rebellion to the Valar who had been set over them by Eru... it was like grace, for Maedhros ever after was the kindest and saddest of the sons of Feanor, but also the most desperate to escape the curse)

Sorry, long post with many ramblings...

**Okay, I'm planning on hitting on the topic a little in the one-shot manga I'm co-writing as a character is in deep depression; but it's portrayed extremely negatively and not a problem-solver at all.

I didn't mean that sacrifice was the same caliber as suicide and murder, sorry, another one of my miscommunicated phrases! What I meant was that sacrifice isn't always necessary either. God can intervene for you and save both yours and your friends lives, without either one of you having to die. I didn't mean it as an act of violence, I was just saying... ugh, I think you know what I mean! *tries to tear thoughts from brain and stick them on paper*

I thought I knew what you meant but then I wasn't sure. Because it wasn't clear at all.

Apologies, it's a trademark of mine. Make things as clear as mud and expect people to understand it. I've been told that I make "so-profound-comments-they-make-my-head-hurt" by one person, and I guess they were right about the headache part!

Well, I guess I could go either way. Obviously IRL I would say suicide is wrong (though I'm not sure if I'd classify it as murder), and sacrifice is totally okay.

Writing, however... I'm inclined to say that the character committing suicide is fine. The examples Vanya provided all seem reasonable. If someone has not asked to be killed, it would be hard to justify taking their life simply to keep information from leaking, even if it would save many people by killing this one person. Other than that, I don't see a problem.
However, very good points have been made for the opposite view as well.

But, even if it is wrong, maybe the character has a different view, or sees no way out even though you the author know they there is a way. If a person thinks something is hopeless, they may be inclined to do such a thing, but that doesn't mean things are actually hopeless.

Okay guys, this is a very touchy subject. I was always surprised no one brought this up sooner, but I figured I would let someone else bring it up, as opposed to myself, because I didn’t have any real questions concerning it.

Now, Katie has asked that this remain in a fictional sense, so I will try to do that as much as possible. However, we are talking about created, sentient beings, even in fiction, and thus, the real world applies a lot to the fictional discussion.

For the record, I do believe suicide is murder, and I don’t think it is ever right. There are many reasons why. I do not believe it is the “unforgivable sin” in the sense that some Catholics do, but this isn’t a theological debate, and I really don’t want to get into that here. I also don’t think it is my place. Suffice it to say I have seen first hand the effects of suicide, and I can tell you it is ugly. Plain and simple, no matter what. You can slice it any way you like. I don’t really want to get into the personal experience; I don’t think it’s really pertinent to the discussion for you all to know the gruesome, horrible facts or the devastation it left behind. However, I can tell you that suicide impacts a lot of lives. More than we are probably aware of at the time.

The big problem I have with suicide, in all of your scenarios Katie, is the fact that it takes God’s sovereignty out completely. I want to focus on your points, as opposed to the theological implications of Suicide, since we are dealing with Fantasy and not a seminary dissertation on the subject.



While suicide may be the obvious way out, it doesn’t make it right. Just because someone is captured, doesn’t mean all is lost. God knows all that HAS happened, IS happening, and WILL happen (1 John 3:20). Likewise, He has ordained those things. God’s knowledge is infinite (Ps. 147:5); it is eternal (Acts 15:18; Is. 46:10). His knowledge extends to all persons, covers all times, and is present all places (Heb. 4:13). He’s perfect. He knows all, infallibly and perpetually (Jer. 10:6-7; Rom. 11:33).

So nothing catches Him by surprise. Nothing is outside His control. He knew the situation would come up. He is allowing it to occur in order to bring Him ultimate glory, however the situation pans out. All time belongs to God. He is not limited by it. The secret things belong to the Lord (Deut. 29:29). As created and finite beings our knowledge is limited. We DO NOT know the day of God’s appointment of death for a person (Heb. 9:27). We do NOT know how the Lord works or orchestrates events. Our responsibility is to handle our end of things – biblically, and not try to take His job.

We do not know if God has ordained our responses to a situation in order to bring about a person’s salvation. We do not know if we are planting seeds under any circumstance, no matter how horrendous. There are many stories of jailers, men who tortured Christian prisoners who were eventually saved due to that believer’s sufferings, and some of these situations did not always include the ultimate death of the tortured. God uses prayer, our actions, our speech or lack thereof, all for a purpose. Even if we can’t see the work He is doing, there is always a reason to everything. Even a Christian’s capture.

Providence is a theological term describing God's preserving, sustaining, ordering, ruling, and governing of His creation. I think what everything comes down to is providence. We need to leave things up to God, and not try to take matters into our own hands (that doesn’t mean we do nothing).



I think all the girls before me brought up good points and reasons for why this isn’t suicide, but in fact is dying in another’s stead. I don’t want to be the copy cat who says the same basic thing everyone else did, so I won’t really touch on this. I think the others have done a good job exploring this point. Making the ultimate sacrifice and embodying true love is an act of love, not selfishness. That a brother be willing to lay his life down for another is beautiful and something the Lord calls us to. This is not to be condemned, but commended. Did not Christ do the same? Are we not to follow in His stead? If Christ is the example, then I can not see anyone being able to say that laying your life down for someone else is wrong.



No. I see this as a major no. We are humans created in the image of God. We are charged to take care of the temple of God. The Bible says (1 Corinthians 3:16-17) Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

I think this scripture speak pretty clearly on the subject. We should not, destroy the temple of the Lord. To aid in the suicide of another implicates us in this crime of destroying the temple.

(1 Corinthians 6:19-20) Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

We are called to honor God with our bodies. If we kill ourselves or someone else, how do we do that?



It is murder. You see, we can’t play God. If someone is burning at the stake, then the Lord is giving them the grace to endure. He is with them, never forsaking them. By putting that bullet through their head, we are taking life into our own hands. We are saying He is not enough. He can’t handle the situation. We need to take charge and deal with the situation appropriately. This is no longer an effort to protect someone. The bullet was not used in self defense. It was used to take the life of the innocent. This is God’s department, not ours.



A promise is meant to be kept. However, we should never make a promise that violates what the Bible tells us. If a promise is contrary to law, it should not be kept. If it is prohibited by the Lord, it should be broken. The Lord is our highest authority. What He calls us to is higher than what man demands of us.




Now this scenario is tricky. I would say no, it is not appropriate or sanctioned. However, when you are dealing with war times… things get tricky. The government is one of the Lord’s appointed authority and serves to protect its people/peoples and a person acting under that authority has a limited covering. However, they still cannot be robots. They will be held accountable for submitting to a corrupted government, violating God’s law i.e. Nazi Germany. The Nazi soldiers say “I was under orders”, yet God’s law trumps all others. It is very complicated, but you have to weight everything against your conscience. But I have neither the time nor the computer battery to go into this discussion.

The best answer is that you try to rescue your comrade, not kill them. If you kill them, you’ve now become an assassin. Under war times you are dealing with a different set of circumstances. Our snipers assassinate people in order to protect us as a country. This is their duty. Sergeant York is a prime example of someone who killed in order to save lives. But there is a difference between killing someone who is actively involved in the act of killing, and killing someone who is on your side. So many things complicate war times, and of course, there are always the Geneva Convention laws. I would say no, you should never kill your comrade because now you have innocent blood on your hands, as opposed to destroying the enemy in an effort to protect people.


Suicide is a result of ultimate despair and the belief that there is no hope. If we are dealing with a character that is non believing, I’d say the use of a suicide scene could be appropriate, in some instances. It is the reality of our lost and fallen world and any other. However, I would be very cautious about portraying it in an exalted, commendable light. It is our responsibility to portray suicide as God sees it. Suicide is always wrong in God’s sight. As authors, we have to be careful of what we portray and put in people’s minds. It is our duty to show our biblical worldview in our work, even if it is not expressly stated.

That was a wonderful and deeply thought-out post, Airianna. Thanks for taking the effort to quote so much Scripture to support your words.

While I believe suicide could be used in a book in a negative light, just as it occurs in the real world, I would caution all the authors here to think twice before dealing with it. The fact of the matter is, do you, as an innocent young man or lady, need to be exploring the depths of a suicidal mind through your character? Do your readers need to be exploring this topic in great depth? That is how my mother once cautioned me on the subject.

I'm considering allowing my evil overlord-type character in Alaidia to commit suicide after he loses, in the style of Hitler. The act will be handled loosely and he will be respectfully honored afterwards - or, more importantly, his nephew will deal kindly with his surviving wife - but I'm still in debate about that. My original method was to let him die of a heart attack, but that was a bit too... obvious, I think.

Glad you found it helpful. I hoped it would be so, instead of just being a ramble.

HW ate my post!!!!!

*glares at blank post*

*starts over*

Thank you, everyone, for your long and well thought out answers. You have given me a lot to think about. In my thinking I've come up with another question.

What is the difference between suicide and sacrifice in certain instances?

For instance, your wife and daughter will be killed if you don't talk. Is not talking murder? So therefore, suicide will save their lives and is sacrifice.

There's a lot of gray, and I guess part of what I'm asking is: when is it wrong to write about suicide? Someone mentioned that if it was an unbeliever it was acceptable, (I mean, suicide as suicide as a plot device is a slightly different subject,) and in one of my scifi short stories this is true. But in Prince of Yen there isn't an obvious allegory, but if there were, the character would be a believer.

*ponders about revealing spoilers and decides most people probably already know this character dies*

Janin has a gift that gives him flashes of insight into the future. Multiple lives are at stake, and while they are many outcomes they all involve the death of at least one. He finds a way out, but the law demands blood in exchange, and he offers his own. Because of his rank he must be his own executioner, and commits suicide.

Right or wrong? Suicide or sacrifice? And what about Ted Dekker's "Red"?
Those of you who've read the ending, was it suicide, sacrifice, or murder? Or a fine blend of all of them? Is this too dangerous a topic to be safely written on? Or does it just require a certain amount of care and thought?

@Philli's last post -- I agree that it should be well-thought over before using a suicidally depressed character. But at the same time, don't shy away from the topic because you're scared of it. Currently I'm writing a story in which the darkest point is a character contemplating suicide. And that's the point of the story, that this character was so wrapped up in himself and his depression that he didn't notice the effect he had on other people -- that if he'd just snap out of it, there were lives he could touch.

@Katie -- that gets sticky because technically it's a sacrifice which requires him to shed his own blood by the laws of the land; no one else can do it.

On top of all this murder/suicide/sacrifice discussion is another layer, I think.

If we've established what is the right thing to do...

Then we must also consider that in many of those situations, I'd guess that most people would choose death for themselves or for the other person because most people, especially flawed but sympathetic protagonists, do not have the moral strength and trust in God to work things out.

Therefore a balance must be reached... a careful one. Because we don't want to promote unwise choices, but we also should make sure characters' reactions to events are in character.

I would like to bring Pilgrims Progress to everyone's attention. I believe that suicide can be dealt with in a story, even from the view of a believer. In P.P. Christian, the main character contemplates, in a very lengthy and in depth scene, committing suicide. This occurs while he is a prisoner in Doubting Castle, his torturer being the giant Despair. In this scene Christian grapples with the thoughts of suicide. We explore the scene through the dialog of Hopeful and Christian. I personally love this scene in the story. Bunyan doesn't shy away from the subject, instead, he deals with it through the eyes of a believer. He shows us how God views the act. All in a narrative, allegorical sense. I think the subject should be dealt with carefully, but I don't think it should be avoided. I also think it can be beneficial to both the author and the reader to explore this subject, in certain instances. It helps us explore and solidify what we believe.

I plan on addressing your second post, Katie, but I'm on my phone at the moment. I hope to get a computer again tonight.

Well, I suppose a guy needs to jump in here somewhere, so I shall make my first appearance.

I think Melody really hit the nail on the head with this quote:


Ultimately we're dealing with two things. From reading y'alls posts I'm guessing that we're mostly in agreement about the moral part of suicide. I didn't see many posts that disagreed with the idea that suicide is wrong, assisted suicide is murder, but sacrifice is good.

The other thing we need to think of, like Melody said, is how the characters would react to this. Because a character maybe doesn't have the insight that we may have...or may not even be a believer at all. To them, suicide may be the best option.

So it's important how we portray it, at least in my opinion. A character's opinion may be flawed, but we, as the author, still have control of how we portray his/her suicide. And I think that's the important thing. We can pretty much make the characters do anything (we are the authors) but along with that we need to portray it as right/wrong, depending on what the Bible says.

Just my 0.02.

eruheran

This is very true.

We must - and should - portray sin in our writings. But we must, through the narrative and delivery, portray it as sin.

I've been watching this topic for a while, so I thought I'd jump in and give my 0.02.

I do believe that suicide is wrong.

When I was about 2 years old, my uncle committed suicide. He had a severe form of depression that just sapped his will to live, and he genuinely believed himself to be a burden to everyone around him. (This is what I picked up from conversations with my parents and grandparents - I think it was a little more complicated than that, but that is the gist of it.)

I wanted to share that with y'all because God did use my uncle's suicide to bring glory to Himself. So many people were strengthened in their walk with Him because of it. My grandparents were on the news talking about it, and they always had such a peace about what happened; people noticed, and began wondering where that peace came from.

So God used my uncle's suicide to further His kingdom.

Hopefully that was within the bounds of "fictional discussion", even though it was a true story.

Yes, it was, Princess. Thank you. That's a very good example.

I thought I would post on this thread since my parents and I have discussed at length the topic of suicide a while back for an essay I was writing. Sorry if I repeat some points that have already been said I didn't have the time to read all of the replies yet, but I wanted to reply.

I do think suicide is wrong and a sin, but it's possible that in certain situations it can be justified. Since you mentioned torture I would say that if the character is certain he will give out sensitive information that is worth more than his life under torture than suicide may be justified. But I would like to point out that in this situation it only seems right to me if the person has absolutely no hope of escape, since I think it would be tragic if they had a chance of escape but choose to take their life instead.

Anyways, those are just my two cents, feel free to disagree.

Bethany Faith

Suicide basically means "killing yourself." Interestingly enough, God permitted a lot of killing back in the day. He ordered whole people groups destroyed. He sent His people to war. He even had His own people executed to help keep their ranks pure.
That makes me think that suicide needs to be divided into two kinds: selfish, and sacrificial.
Just from the names it is clear which I think is good and which is bad. Example of selfish, "Life is too hard. I try and can't get anything right. I hate my life. Goodbye."
Example of sacrificial, "If those guys get to me, I know I will give in. I will tell them too much, then they will kill me anyway. In order to preserve others lives, I give up my own."
I think dividing the general action "suicide" helps a lot.

Killing is different than suicide. You can't lump them.

But is it? They're both the taking of human life.

I've been deliberating about this example, whether it goes in the Execution thread or here... What about being your own executioner? If you're sentenced to death already, what are the implications of taking your own life? Or what if, rather than turning yourself in, you take your own life? Or what if you're ordered to commit suicide? If you've shed another blood, isn't shedding your own justice?

Of course, obviously, if you're a murderer, who's unrepentant, it's kind of a pointless exercise because you've already committed murder.

So is killing and murder.
Killing a person in cold blood (murder) is obviously wrong. But what about war? Soldiers have to kill people to protect their country. There were times in the Bible where the Israelites had to kill their enemies. Was that wrong? I don't think it necessarily was.

What is my point? I'm not sure =P

Arias that brings to my mind the scripture:

Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

I find suicide a hard subject; I believe it is wrong to commit suicide however in some rare cases I can understand it and I don't necessarily think that person is damned forever because they took their own life, however as this is to remain fictional I'm not going into that. I guess it depends how you portray it. I don't think it's wrong to include it in your book, I'd just find it hard to include it in mine. It is something that goes on in the real world but it is a dark subject.

Jephthah sacrificed his own daughter in the Old Testament yet he is mentioned in the New Testament in the Hebrews chapter about men/women of faith

Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

This is a form of sacrifice yet I don't believe he was turned away by God even though that doesn't make what he did right.

How about Samson? He knew he'd die if he pulled down the pillars of the building he was in; God knew it too. Yet still God Himself gave Samson his strength back just for that purpose. It wasn't Samson misusing his gift. God gave his strength so that he could go down with the thousands of Philistines in the building. If God had wanted, He could have preserved Samson's life, but instead He allowed Samson to commit self-sacrifice, effectively killing himself.

Well. This has been an interesting topic.

It all depends on the motives, as do a lot of other things. I have a character in Circle of Three who all through the book wants to kill herself, because she had a terrible life and she believes everyone hates her and no one would ever forgive her for what she's done. But, at the end, she does something she's sure will kill her to save her baby's life. I won't say how it turns out, but I like the contrast. Just a small shift in motives and suddenly it's honorable instead of cowardly.

I'll just say this... suicide is definitely not some unconquerable mountain that God is not able to remove like some people claim. But it's almost never the right option either.

Now, this I disagree with, at least under some circumstances. If someone is going to die slowly and painfully, and there is nothing you can do to stop it, then doing nothing only causes them pain. Burning at the stake may be a different situation, but how about someone who has been wounded in such a way that he is certain to die, but not quickly? While God could, of course, simply save the person's life, he could also do that if you shot him. I suppose it still might not be right, but I wouldn't say it's the same as murder.

You still took life. You see, by taking someone's life who is dying slowly, we deprive that person of bringing glory to God in their death (Huss is a perfect example of this, and his story has inspired thousands of people). We also say "God, you can no longer work in this situation, so let me take care of it." We would never put it that bluntly, but that is the basic message we give. If my Daddy were lying there, dying slowly from a bullet wound, I'd be praying for the Lord to easy his pain and comfort his spirit, not getting ready to pull the trigger on him. And my Daddy, for those who don’t know me, is practically my idol. There is no other human being who compares, in my opinion.

Yes, but...well, eh, I don't know. I guess it comes from reading things like westerns, where people get shot in the stomach and die slowly... And it would also depend on exactly how painful it is... I don't know. Killing the person might still be wrong, but I wouldn't, well, I don't know how to say it. I wouldn't really tell someone who had done that that it was wrong, I guess. At least, assuming the right circumstances, which, well, I can't think of a specific situation... Not every time someone is dying painfully would fit.

I don't know. But it's the same sort of thing with some of these other situations. It may be wrong to kill someone/yourself even in that circumstance, but it's hard to condemn someone for doing so.

I didn't say I would condemn someone in that situation. I didn't condemn anyone involved in the suicide that occurred in my life. When someone close to me committed suicide, I didn't tell the family "Oh, they weren't saved, they are going to hell". That's not my place. Nor do I really think it is anyone's place. However, we are discussing this rationally, without being in the situation. Standing as someone not involved in this kind of situation, and know none of you are either, I'm saying I think it is wrong. I know when to offer grace. And someone who has endured the effects of suicide needs grace, not "You know..."

Well, yeah, which is why I was trying to avoid using the word condemn, because it was stronger than what I really meant, but I couldn't think of another word. I mean, obviously you aren't going to tell the friends and family of someone who committed suicide all about how it was wrong. But I mean like even silently or whatever. Sometimes, well, almost all the time, a suicide is obviously the wrong thing to do, but in some of those situations, even though I would still probably think it was wrong, it would be hard for me to really, eh, I don't know if there's a word for what I'm thinking... Well, I guess in some of the more extreme situations, I'm not sure I'd even be able to really think it was wrong. I guess in some ways it's like lying; only death is rather more important. But, ah, I don't know. I'm just glad I don't have to decide anything like that.

I think we need another of Airiann'a long threads that covers every angle in one fell-swoop.
But until we get one from her... I will see what I can do to make one of my own.

I will start by refuting the Samson example that I accidentally brought up right after someone else did without realizing that just had. As one site I just checked points out, Samson's goal was to kill Philistines, not himself. That does put a different light on it. It makes him like any war hero we know who jumps into harm's way to help his side.

Which brings up bullet taking. Secret Service men have taken bullets so that the president doesn't. In a way, they are deliberately causing their own death (unless they survive)... is that suicide?

I have two points to make from the previous example. First, we can't logically discuss the morality of suicide unless we decide what constitutes suicide. If it just means killing yourself, the Medal of Honor winners who jump on grenades are committing suicide. We honor those people. Our very guts tell us that they did something noble. Now, obviously, our guts tell us a lot of things, many of which aren't true (the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked) but we do need to give some credit to the fact that we would all honor someone who did that.

Second point. Suicide is not just killing yourself. Suicide, as we mean it, is killing yourself because you wish you were dead. Medal of Honor winners probably weren't thinking, "Great! A chance to die!" or they would have found a way a long time ago. So they aren't committing suicide. Enough about them.

That's why I divided suicide into two kinds, if it were to be simply "killing yourself." There is Samson/Medal of Honor, which will I call sacrificial suicide. I don't think anyone here will contest that sacrificial suicide, as such, is wrong. But just in case they do, I will bring up Samson again. God told him, essentially, to kill himself as a way to also kill thousands of God-hating, God-mocking Philistines.

The other is selfish suicide. This can be summed up as, "I wish I was dead, therefore I will make my wish come true." Again, I don't think there is any contest over this. It's wrong.

Why all the wind over things I didn't think anyone would disagree with? Partly to get my mind and typing fingers warmed up. Partly so that we can have a starting point for any further discussion.

Now to the special points, particularly, helping someone commit suicide or killing them to put them out of their misery. I think I will, in spite of myself, side with Airianna on this one. Every. last. moment. of someone's life on earth is a moment when God is changing them to be more like Him, or as I say, making the transition less shocking when they arrive in heaven fully perfected.

While I am posting though, the above fits mostly with when another Christian is dying. What about an unbeliever? Well, then, you aren't really putting him or her out of his or her misery, just expediting their way to more intense misery. So I think that is ruled out, too.

My post didn't measure up to an epic Airianna post, but it is one of my more epic ones

Hey, I was impressed And I'll post my thoughts off of your post tomorrow, after I get some sleep

By the way Reiyen, I was impressed you went and did Samson research. I was wondering if someone else was going to refute that.

Can everyone here at least agree that God's grace is big enough to cover suicide? What if someone regrets their decision from jumping from a building halfway down? Or after they slit their wrists? Of course, this topic wanders into eternal security, which I know I differ from Jay on, so yeah, we might want to avoid that topic.

Yep. I believe in eternal security. I don't believe that committing suicide will send you to hell if you are saved. It's a sin, but God forgives us.



Erm... yeah. Hehe.

I have the unfortunate reputation of having that debate follow me wherever I go.

We have a law on my forum that goes like this: "As the length of a thread increases, the probability of the topic turning to Calvinism approaches one."

Oh, unfortunate reputation indeed! You bring it on yourself and you know it! You're the one who turns the conversations that direction!

Topic change------------------------------------------------------------

I liked what Evening and Airianna said on the..... first..... page of this thread. Evening pretty much said exactly what I was formulating in my mind as I read. Suicide is wrong, it is murder of self, but there are some, very few, instances where it is right. But often in those instances it is not called suicide.

Reading the first few posts, I was really having a hard time not defending suicide (I have a tendency to defend anything that happens to be being attacked...) because I struggle with depression quite a lot, increasingly more (aaagh!), and have considered the possibility a time or two. But whenever I thought of what Daddy would think, I couldn't let the idea stay. He's one of the.... two, or maybe three people in my life that have that power over me.



I thought I disagreed with you at first, but I changed my mind. That example was enough to clarify.



Yes. I like what Arias said and am tempted to repeat it though there's no need. I'll just go ahead. If one is saved, I think they will still go to heaven, because they are saved. Recently someone I know said "suicide is the road to hell, not heaven" and that threw me in doubt for awhile, but I think that only goes for unbelievers. Not sure if that's what she meant, though.

Suicide is a sin, but, according to what I've read of the Bible (yeah, I know, I still haven't read it all the way through.... it's sad...), there is only one unpardonable sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:30-32).

So, that's where I stand on the matter.

I agree, Arianllyn; we are faithless, and have moments of doubt in life, and God stands by us always. We may be faithless at times, but He promises to be faithful. Which is why I also believe that in a moment of despair, and doubt we can be faithless, but God will not turn His back on us in that moment.

Old thread reawakened...

I have a Calvinist friend who believes you go to hell if you commit suicide. Figure that one out...I can't.

As I understand it, although maybe it's actually a different viewpoint, the way that works is that if you commit suicide, your last act is murder, and not just murder, but (usually) a murder coming from despair and therefore a lack of trust in God, or something like that, and then you don't have a chance to repent, either. Personally, I just leave who goes to hell up to God, because it's beyond me.

I strongly suspect that this is actually "no one who's really one of the elect could commit suicide"---a human action can't change one's eternal destination (only God can do that), but it can (sometimes, at least in theory) reveal it ...

I've seen some thoughts about the definition of suicide and what it exactly means, but I don't remember seeing a true definition. Though I could have missed it... So here's a definition just by googling it: The action of killing oneself intentionally.

So how could we take the concept of suicide and use it in our writing? What do you think would be a positive way to portray it and a negative way to portray it? Have y'all used it before?