Well...I have quite a few guy friends, and a little brother, so I can't say I have the same problem. HOWEVER. I know you have a Dad. Ask him!

And maybe delve a bit into the Bible. Research Biblical masculinity and femininity and how they intereact.

If you need some resources just pm or email me.

I'm a girl who only has guy friends so I'm afraid I'm not a member of either world exactly...

Even though I have male relatives and other research sources, if you will, I often question whether or not my guy characters are truly realistic. Because God made me female, I write from that perspective. That's natural. But I still want to be realistic. So, I'm with you, Evening, and I look forward to seeing what kind of suggestions get posted on this thread!

I agree - ask your father. You can also post an excerpt here and ask our gracious male members to comment on it. Studying the Bible is an excellent idea, as well as how guy characters are portrayed in solid fiction.

I agree about asking daddy and such, but you might also want to try making some guy friends. Lots of guys are nice and smart. Just think of guys you interact with a lot, at school, at church, at clubs you're in, then talk to them! Especially if you're in clubs with them; it means you have common interests! Woot!
And in school if you do group projects, don't be afraid to split into groups with people you don't know, some guys, some girls. It's fun! Some of my best friends I've made that way, again, some guys, some girls.
Then, your book can almost be a parallel of your real life, developing guys deeper as you get to know certain guys deeper. It's fun!
Of course, there are other issues, guys that will be jerky or immature, personal shyness, really clique-ish cliques, etc., but chances are you will meet some guys who are cool and smart and who you'd like to get to know better.
I'd also like to say that not all fictional guys have to be the strong picture of masquelinity. I write and know strong and weak girls and strong and weak guys. Some of my characters are strong physically and weak intellectually, and vice versa. My guys mess up royally, my girls mess up royally. Some of my guys are dumb, some of my girls are dumb. Sometimes even my "smart" girls and guys are dumb in certain areas. That's okay. They're supposed to be people, yes?
The smartest guy I know is not a leader. And he doesn't want to be one. He likes sitting in the back of the room quietly blowing things up. One of the dumbest girls I know is one of the greatest leaders. Just because a person is a male or a female doesn't make them any certain kind of person. Enviornment, parents, friends, whether they went to museums or motor shows as a kid, and church play a much bigger part in determining who a person will be than their gender. Which is cool. Diversity! Yeah, baby!

Okay, I'm still waiting for the guys to get on here, but I'll go ahead and post anyway.

So, as you know, this is one of the things that bothers me most. Effeminate male characters. While Celearas is correct that not all guys have to be this way, that's not what you are asking, so I will try to answer the question you have put forth. You want advice on how to write the men you struggle writing.

So...

First off, I’m a girl myself, so I will inevitably think differently than guys. However my past (which some of you are aware of) I think has helped me learn to understand guys. I don’t think they are weird, and I think their line of thinking makes sense. Plus, I always grew up in a predominantly male family. I thought it was important to be able to participate in their lives, doing things they enjoyed, so I’m often a participator in those sorts of things, whether that is cheering from the sidelines or actually getting involved personally. It depends on the circumstance.

I think lots of people tell girls to “read a book” that portrays good guy characters. I’m sorry, but I don’t think that helps a lot. For me, the biggest thing girls struggle with when they are writing guys is their emotions and mindset. Everything else flows from this.

Girls tend to give guys female emotions. I’m not saying guys are heartless, soulless, or never cry. They aren't and do. However, their response to a situation is much less fueled by their emotions than the response of women. Emotionally, men and women are fairly similar. They just show it in a different way. Generally, women tend to externalize their emotions. Men tend to internalize them. A girl will come home and cry because someone was mean to her (this is an exaggerated example, cause I wouldn’t do that) whereas a guy would stew on the problem. Perhaps an honest male character would be one who thinks about his issues, but tends to emote them less visibly.

Guys are also physically stronger. I’m sorry, you can’t argue that. Now, I was a farm girl. I could throw 50 pound hay bale no problem. Some city boys, who came out to work with my Daddy, couldn’t. This wasn’t because I was “stronger”. This was because I was accustomed to the work and using those muscles, whereas they were not. They could still probably overtake me physically because guys are created more physically powerful than women.

Also, they respond to environmental situations differently. Girls will spend their time talking about the scenery and describing it in great length. Guys are more prone to describe the objects that make up the scenery. They are wired to evaluate the situation and be prepared. So they enter situations with automatic difference and responses that aren’t necessarily even intentional. Think about it. When girls give directions they say things like: “You’ll have a McDonald’s on your right…you’ll pass over a bridge… there’s a little picket fence… a mailbox set off the road.” Guys are more likely to say “you drive __ far… turn right onto ___… it will be two streets up… go south…house number is___…”

Remember when you are writing that guys' brains function very logically (I’m NOT saying here that women’s do not). They also respond to situations very quickly. The Lord has designed guys' brains to run through a rapid fire thought process in an instant so that they can fly into action. Girls tend to dwell on a thought process more. Guys are also more prone to take risks and exceed their limitations. They function much better on adrenaline than women. They are designed that way.

Think of these characteristics when you are writing your men. Confidence. Competence. Competition.

Another big thing to remember is dominance and hierarchy. Guys function off of a “pecking order” It's kind of like the Alpha Male syndrome. Guys like to know who’s who in this system. When men meet other men, they look at the other guy and assess them, subconsciously. "Can I take him if I need to? If so, how?" I’ve found this is automatic. They don’t really literally think and dwell on this. It may sound crazy to some girls, but it is true. Why do you think young boys thrive so much on horseplay and roughhousing? They are learning the physical skills of strength and domination. They are preparing for their role as the protectors, the combaters.

To whine and moan is weakness. To overly show fear, is weakness. So guys tend to suppress these things. They would rather jest in the face of fear, then allow their oppressor to feel power over them. But I already talked about this in the torture thread, so I won’t go into any more detail on this.

Guys, you are welcome to contradict me here. Obviously, I’m not a guy.

I’m not saying that all guys are like this. Also, guys have these characteristics in varying degrees. However, I hope this helps some. Obviously guys are so much more complex than these simple things, but it is a start.

Airianna, that was really helpful. *bookmarks thread*

I haven't posted yet because I have no idea where to start. But I'm here if needed.

For the moment, I'll comment on Airianna's post. I can attest to everything she said, particularly since she noted that men have those characteristics at varying degrees and in some cases may lack one or more entirely. I know I'm not entirely like what she said; for example, I'm a writer, so my directions may be more colorful.

I have time now to do a more thorough analysis of Airianna's (rather impressive) post.


The two things most likely to make a man cry are: The loss or suffering of a loved one or other innocent person, or being worn down by a long struggle of some sort. Generally situations cause men to brood. Men are more likely to cry in the presence of women than of other men. Men are unlikely to cry in the presence of a woman, however, if they feel that the woman needs them to be comforting. Men can suppress their grief in most instances, either hiding it or turning it into anger. Men sometimes deal with grief by staying busy.


That pretty much says it all.


I'm not so sure about this one. I think it widely varies. Men are divided somewhat into leaders, thinkers, and followers. The leaders think things through fast and jump into action. The thinkers muse on a problem for awhile. The followers look to a leader for direction, though some will jump into action if there is no one to guide them. I imagine most male protagonists would be leaders, and so would think as you described. Also, many followers or thinkers have the potential to become a leader if given enough time or the right inspiration, and this could make an interesting character arc.


Most importantly, competition. Not all men are confident or competent in all areas, but they are all competitive.


All of it, including the "Can I take him?" part, is true. Men in general are dedicated to the idea of being a protector. They're always thinking of how to protect themselves and their loved ones in various situations and deal with various threats.


Guys may whine and moan to sympathetic girls or other guys who are their friends, but only if they don't feel strength is needed in that moment, and they would never show the same vulnerability to their enemies.


True. I feel inadequate to give a comprehensive overview of such a complex subject, even though I am a guy. However, I will answer questions as best I can, and maybe some other guys will offer to as well.

I have one brother and he's a very guy guy. lol! So I don't have any problems writing including boys, but I think Willow's advice was really good, ask your Dad and also research in books that you really like, especially ones where the boy character has really stood out to you and find what qualities you like protrayed in them Or even research films if you find that watching them visually helps you more!

The suggestion of Willow and Philadelphia to look in the Bible is a good one. There are plenty of stories in the Bible showing how men should act, as well as many showing how men should not act.

I have three younger brothers, and a few older guy friends, and I'm usually good at observing people. I've always been able to get along with guys just as well as girls. Even then it's hard to write a believable male character. I think Airianna just about summed it up, though.

I know you said you don't really have any guy friends, but for me that is what has helped me most understand guys. They all have different personalities, but there's still things all guys have in common. And when you're writing, then you can think "What might ___ do in this situation?", instead of just having to rely on your own thoughts.

Now what made you think this post would attract my attention Evening?

I'm glad both you and Shawn found my post helpful.

Also, thanks for you post Jonathan.

If I think of anything else, I'll post more.

Thank you very much, Airianna, for the thoughtful post, and Jonathan, for the helpful and honest evaluation!

It is always an honor to serve the charming ladies of Holy Worlds. *bows*

*makes mental note of thread* I'm going to have to remember this...I'm a very emotional female, so I think my guys might tend more toward the emotional side of things. None of my brothers have ever told me my guys aren't realistic, but I've never asked them to look for that specifically either, so I don't really know how well I do.

Asking your brothers to read and evaluate your work is an excellent idea. You should bake cookies for them in return for their generous labor.

I've had my brothers read my work and critique stuff. The problem with asking non writers for their opinion is that a lot of the times they struggle with telling you how to fix your characters. I've never had a problem with my guy characters, but I know some of my supporting characters were fading into the background too much and my non writer friends couldn't really help me figure out what was wrong. However, if you were to bake cookies for me I know my efforts to help would double .

Oooh, this was really interesting to read! I've never had any trouble writing about guys, but this could be due to the fact I have 4 brothers, two of which come straight after me, so they have been my best friends practically my whole life. I base a lot of characters traits of their speech, actions, likes, dislikes, attitudes, tempers, etc. They are both very fun loving, love to laugh and have a joke. They can have fiery tempers that take a while to cool. They can also have a bit of pride at times, don't like being wrong, like to be in charge, life is a race, and they are in it to win.

A lot of varied reading has helped me develop these characters too. But I think the best advice for you has already been given; searching the Bible. Men like Joshua, Caleb, Boaz, John the Baptist, Mordecai. Here's a verse that may help you out:


"Likewise, exhort the younger men to be sober minded; in all things showing yourself an example of good works; in your teaching showing integrity, seriousness, incorruptibility, and soundness of speech that can't be condemned; that he who opposes you may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say about us." - Titus 2:6-8

Don't know if my ramblings have helped you at all, so... yeah! Have fun with your writing!

I have a slight problem with this too. I have guy friends, but I don't see them a lot. So basically, I get it from observing how guys act. Guys will be guys, and girls will probably never know how they function perfectly. Neither will guys know how girls function, and won't understand why this guy/girl does this. But it's easier for girls to write guys IMO.

Hmmm... it is interesting you should say that Elly. I haven't decided if it is easier for guys to write girls or girls to write guys.

I think it depends on the individual. There are lots of books where women write men excellently, and some books where men write women very well. I think there are more of the former, but it does depend on the individual. Look how much difference we have here, some girls who have no problem writing guys, and other girls who have no clue. You can't generalize. That's like saying which is easier, action or drama. You just can't answer it.
I might say, however, that for the most part girls are drawn to books where the main character is a boy than boys drawn to books whose main character is a girl. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings have huge female audiences, actually, I think the female audience is bigger than the male, but books like the Hunger Games and "girl" historical fic like Alison Weir's stuff have significantly smaller male audiences than female ones. I'm not sure why. I think it is because lots of authors feel if they have a girl main character they have to have a romance (So many do and it stinks) and lots of boys don't go for that. Also, girls can better relate to stereotypically "male" things like sports, battle, and the outdoors, while boys have hard times relating to stereotypically "girl" things like clothes, parties, and the indoors (*slight snarl*). There have always been more tomboys (whee!) than whatever you call a guy who acts or likes "girly" things. (Sally girl? I don't know.)
Anyway, slightly off-topic, sorry. But I thought it was valid.

Actually... I think it's easier for me to write guy characters than girls. My girl characters are usually far more complex, and full of quirks, however my guy characters are much steadier and straight up and down to write about. However, I always make sure they aren't flawless, and sometimes react in ways you never expect them to.

For example, when my girl character in one novel (who went incognito as a guy to get into Battleschool) is revealed as a girl, my protag guy character's temper flares, and he's very angry, and disowns all association with her. Eventually it will turn out ok, but I didn't want him to be so perfect that he just patted her on the shoulder and said "It's ok, I'm sure you had a good reason." He had to have flaws too.

Wow, got a bit off topic there... But anyway, if you give your guy character flaws it makes them a lot more realistic.

I suppose I better give my advice. So, here I go. Oh, I have no trouble writing them, but that can probably be expected.

We, in general, crave adventure, adrenaline rushes, and danger. That's probably why games like "Halo" and "Call of Duty" are so popular. They provide excitement, adrenaline, and risk.
We also, perhaps because of the previous one, can often act without thinking completely through it. It generally results in nothing more serious than a few broken bones, and that's not often.
We also, as mentioned before, generally try to hide emotions, no matter what type they are. We also have trouble expressing them.
Showing off and being flashy are just part of us, especially as we get older. Showing off and being flashy are both easily accomplished by having a nice car, house, tv, etc. That's why we collect stuff from what I can tell.
Confidence is probably one of the most important things to us, sub-consciously, that even when we aren't confident, we still make sure we look confident.

I'll probably post more after I analyze some more.

That was very helpful, Varon - thanks!

(I love how guys say things like "nothing more serious than a few broken bones"...)

You're welcome.
Yeah, broken bones aren't that bad.

This thread has been very interesting to follow!

I don't typically have too much trouble with guys, though I usually have more girls in my stories. Caleb is very helpful when it comes to things like this. He can look at what I've written, and decide if it's realistic for me.

I have two amazing guys to observe in my dad and Caleb. And I am friends with a lot of guys too. Some of them are leaders, and some are more followers... and others are somewhere in between. But it's nice to know a lot of different guys with very different personalities, especially when I'm trying to write a new guy character!

Thanks, Jonathan and Varon, for giving us your opinion! I have stored all that information in my brain for later reference!

You're welcome.

I have the same problem with writing girl characters.

It has to be nice to have an older brother who is a writer be able to look at your male characters...

Actually he's my younger brother, by 18 months!

Varon, you should start a "writing girls and women" thread, if you find writing about us hard!

Now that would be an interesting thread too.

All my brothers are younger than me too, but they still make good models for characters.

Baha!

Any other questions for us about writing men and boys?

What do guys usually talk about and how do they talk to each other?

Well, with my friends at my co-op, we generally talk enthusiastically and sometimes a bit loud. We're not the best group to judge by though.

We talk about our mad schemes, from a movie that we're making that is in production and preparing to be filmed in the spring, to ways to get several million dollars to build an island and start a micro-nation, to our current plan which is to design superhero costumes for ourselves, get some TASERs and become heroes who walk the night fighting crime. All this from three guys who aren't even old enough to have a drivers license yet.

Okay, I have a question. In the filmmaker's commentary for Facing the Giants, one of the guys commented on a scene: "Women hate this scene because the guys aren't looking at each other while they're apologizing. [They're kinda standing near each other, but looking out somewhere else.] Well, that's the way guys are."

Is that true?

That sounds right, but I'm not entirely sure, since guys rarely apologize to each other.

I think it's because if guys have a fight, they tend to see everything in extremes. It's either big enough to feud over, or it's small enough to forget.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this one guys. Girls usually have every talk face to face. That's just the way they're wired. So at a cafe you see a bunch of girls around a table facing each other. Guys usually go shoulder to shoulder. Whether it's leaning against a wall or sitting at the diner's bar instead of a booth. When guys make eye contact it's seen as a challenge. An apology involves humble people so they're not looking to challenge each other.

Yeah, that's about right. When my three friends and I talk, we're generally facing a poorly drawn diagram of what we're trying to say or looking all over the place.

Um... I've never met a guy who found eye contact as a challenge.

Interesting...

Well, eye contact isn't really a challenge. My friends and I don't do it. I'm not sure why.


Shoulder to shoulder sounds about right.

Guys bond by being a part of something together. I became friends with a lot of people because we helped each other survive our first Speech tournament. Not much talking or playing...we were just with each other through the event.

I will note that lots of guys are conversationalists...but we bond by doing stuff together, not hearing about each others lives. We tend to not care so much about "knowing about a person" in terms of information.

So if, in my novels, I have guys that become fast friends simply because they survived a tough experience together (even if they have little in common personality-wise), that's realistic?

That depends:

If they both contribute, they're likely to be friends. If one was a serious whiner, or someone put the other's life in danger, then they probably won't be friends. Etc.

One of the friends I have from that experience is completely different from me. His politics are different, he's a bit more liberal in terms of Christianity, and other things. But we get along and we're friends. The question for guys is really "do I want to do something with this person". If you think it would be fun to do something with someone, you're probably friends. (That's also true for girls, but I find that they think about it a BIT differently.)