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The Science of Death
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Author:  Whythawye [ December 16th, 2010, 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  The Science of Death
Greetings,

Wow, it has been a while since I actually started a thread in here for something other than management stuff.

But this came up over in the Torture Thread, and they wanted me to elaborate on what I was talking about. So here I am.

How hard/easy is it to kill a person?

(I am just starting the thread here, I will be posting on it later today, hopefully, haha.)

Mod's note: At the request of Jay, this thread is designated for discussing the science of death. How hard is it to kill a person? Is the death in your book medically realistic? For discussing how death affects plot, see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1795&sid=25269919d133ecb919e6210ac7e98aea#
Author:  Whythawye [ December 16th, 2010, 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
A quick link:

http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/

This guy is a professional doctor and forensic scientist... and a writer. His goal is to provide scientific answers for curious writers of any genre who want to know things. Anything. From what happens when werewolves get touched by silver, to how to survive a zombie attack. Fascinating stuff. :)
Author:  Lady Elanor [ December 16th, 2010, 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Wow this is brilliant, Jay! So many questions I've often wondered about answered in this. :) Thanks for posting this! It's quite scary though, I don't know why I'm writing a murder story because the topic scares me so much!
Author:  Aragorn [ December 16th, 2010, 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
I bookmarked that blog for future reference. :D
Author:  Willow Wenial Mimetes [ December 16th, 2010, 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Same here. :D That's going into my "Writing web" folder!
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ December 16th, 2010, 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Hehehe... writers read the weirdest stuff. XD
Author:  Whythawye [ December 16th, 2010, 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Melody Kondrael wrote:
Hehehe... writers read the weirdest stuff. XD


Haha, one of the things he said was that Who else but a writer can you walk up to and ask how you could best kill someone and get away with it without getting into trouble? :D
Author:  Kiev Shawn [ December 16th, 2010, 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
I bookmarked that blog too.

I've gotten some weird looks from people at my home school group when I talk about killing my characters off... :D
Author:  Arias Mimetes [ December 16th, 2010, 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Haha...
"You know you're a crazy fantasy writer when you add a blog about killing people to your Google Reader."
Author:  Riniel Jasmina [ December 16th, 2010, 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Usually I know which characters will die before they're very developed so I don't regret it until I get to know them later. So far I've only had the heart to kill evil things with no soul or an evil one and my Christian characters that will go to Heaven. Writing has given me such an interesting perspective on God...
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ December 16th, 2010, 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Thanks for starting this, Jay, and for the link! We writers often come up with questions (not just about death) that can be hard to answer directly through a Google or library search. This should be useful. Looking forward to reading what else you post!
Author:  Calenmiriel [ December 17th, 2010, 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
How hard/easy is it to kill a person?


I must say, I found this line rather comical. :3 Anywho, this will prove helpful in my writings. (Not that I'm saying I kill off lots of characters.) ;)
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ January 5th, 2011, 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
All right, you bloodthirsty character-murdering and Iri-loving lunatics... if you wish to keep discussing the characters you've slain in cold blood and how that emotional trauma continues to hinder your daily life, please move to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1795&sid=25269919d133ecb919e6210ac7e98aea#

At the request of Jay, this thread is reserved for discussing the science of death, the laws of medicine and reality. If you want to know if the source of your character's demise is medically realistic, post here. If you have questions or resources to share about the science of death, post here. Discussion about the affects that death has on plot and emotion should be contained to the other thread.

We realize that the topic of this thread wasn't clear at first, but we're redefining it now. Some of the posts from this topic may end up split off to the new topic, just as a forewarning.

Thanks so much, manslayers!
Author:  Aemi [ March 14th, 2011, 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Well, I do need the best way to kill a character this way: He is fighting a sword duel, his opponent stabs him, knows he's going to die, and leaves. Then the man has to stay alive for 5 to 10 more minutes. He needs to have trouble breathing but be able to talk. Where should he get stabbed?
Author:  Whythawye [ March 15th, 2011, 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Aemi wrote:
Well, I do need the best way to kill a character this way: He is fighting a sword duel, his opponent stabs him, knows he's going to die, and leaves. Then the man has to stay alive for 5 to 10 more minutes. He needs to have trouble breathing but be able to talk. Where should he get stabbed?


In the abdomen. Simple. If it is high enough, it might damage the diaphragm and possibly even the lungs, while not making him die very soon at all (people have sometimes lasted for hours and even survived from that kind of wound, but it isn't common). It would definitely mess up his breathing quite a bit, too, and he would still be able to gasp out words.
Author:  Aemi [ March 15th, 2011, 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
So, would his opponent be absolutely sure he was going to die, and not feel the need to finish him off?
Author:  Whythawye [ March 16th, 2011, 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Aemi wrote:
So, would his opponent be absolutely sure he was going to die, and not feel the need to finish him off?


Yep, depending on the opponent. Some have a tendency to hack people up until there is no hope of resurrection (like orcs), others are less likely to do that.

But a thrust through the abdomen would be considered a killing stroke, yes.
Author:  Aemi [ March 16th, 2011, 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
You're right, I think by then his opponent would be feeling emotionally drained, and so would leave him.
Thank you very much.
<>< Aemi
Author:  Whythawye [ March 16th, 2011, 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
No problem! :)
Author:  Suiauthon Mimetes [ April 1st, 2011, 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
So here is my question. How could, scientifically, one strike an enemy in order to have the person immediately die? Like if someone got sliced from behind and died in less than the second it takes to call for help or scream in agony.
I've read many times of how the MC kills his enemy like I described above and gets away with it because none of the other enemies near-by heard a cry for help. It always seemed to me like blind luck that the wound could cause death so fast.
Author:  Whythawye [ April 1st, 2011, 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Suiauthon wrote:
So here is my question. How could, scientifically, one strike an enemy in order to have the person immediately die? Like if someone got sliced from behind and died in less than the second it takes to call for help or scream in agony.
I've read many times of how the MC kills his enemy like I described above and gets away with it because none of the other enemys near-by heard a cry for help. It always seemed to me like blind luck that the wound could cause death so fast.


There are a few places where that is possible. The brain, the top of the spinal column, and the heart. If you get them hard enough, they can die instantly.

If it is noise you are worried about, slicing their throat or choking them to death is also effective (again, if done properly), because even if they don't die instantly, they can't make any noise in the process.
Author:  Aemi [ April 18th, 2011, 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Okay, this question is slightly different...
For a scene in my story, I need my character to get squished into the mud by a big log, and lose consciousness for a while, but recover quickly.
Do you think this is possible? And if so, how should the log land on her?
And is this question appropriate for this thread?
Author:  Whythawye [ April 19th, 2011, 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Aemi wrote:
Okay, this question is slightly different...
For a scene in my story, I need my character to get squished into the mud by a big log, and lose consciousness for a while, but recover quickly.
Do you think this is possible? And if so, how should the log land on her?
And is this question appropriate for this thread?


Perfect question. Haha. I am liking these. :D

Well you have a lot of factors that go into that. The size of the log, how far it fell, how rotten/soft it was, where the character's head was, how deep the mud was (I am assuming that is there to help cushion the blow so he doesn't get hurt too bad?), what was happening previously to the incident, what happened right after, etc.

If it was too deep of a mud pit, he might sink in from the weight of the log and suffocate before he wakes up. So I will assume a shallow mud puddle with relatively thick mud.

If he has some head gear, that would also help him out. Even a hat.

If the log is relatively light, or if he only gets hit by a branch, it will likely only give him a concussion, knocking him out for a while. He would be in danger of death afterwards, but he wouldn't necessarily feel really bad (barring amnesia), and would be able to go on. If he doesn't die or even if he does die, either way. At least from what I know.

Here are a couple links with related discussions. And you can always ask the Dr. yourself, you will get a ton more info. ;) And if you do, please post his answer here for us to read too. :)

http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.c ... -injuries/
http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.c ... ways-kill/
Author:  Ciela Rose [ April 19th, 2011, 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
. . . You know you're a HWer if you can read these posts with a straight face and know where everyone is coming from. :D

Here's my question. Can someone be stabbed in the heart, live twenty-four hours without care (except chilling from the snow), then survive with no side effects? I'm kind of guessing not, but it'd be interesting to know for sure.
Author:  Aemi [ April 19th, 2011, 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Thank you, O sir. I'm trying to be realistic, but it would be inconvenient for her to be seriously injured.
Now that I think about it, she doesn't really need to be unconscious. At least not completely. And there are people around her who lift the log off quickly, so I don't think she could suffocate.
Author:  Whythawye [ April 19th, 2011, 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Ciela Rose wrote:
Here's my question. Can someone be stabbed in the heart, live twenty-four hours without care (except chilling from the snow), then survive with no side effects? I'm kind of guessing not, but it'd be interesting to know for sure.


* laughs * No side-effects? Ha! :D

If you mean in the chest region, then yes, that is possible. If you mean in the actual heart organ, I would count that as a miracle. Unless you had cobha in place that would render it feasible, but you would need to set that up before hand to keep it from seeming too pat and contrived. :)
Author:  Ciela Rose [ April 19th, 2011, 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Hmmm. Yep, I thought it was a little far-fetched.

He'll probably just be stabbed in the chest region, because I don't have cobha which affects that sort of injury . . .

So, apparently side effects are an unavoidable part of his life after being wounded like that . . . What should he expect? What sort of side effects?
Author:  Whythawye [ April 19th, 2011, 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Extremely variable, as that first article I linked to shows (http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.c ... -injuries/). In general though, severe chest pains wouldn't be far fetched. ;) Difficulty breathing, shock and trauma symptoms, internal and external bleeding, triggering symptoms from loss of blood. Stuff like that come off the top of my head.
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ May 3rd, 2011, 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Okay, here's a question for the resident death expert... how long can someone survive in a coma without sustenance/life support?

Situation: Unnamed Character was in a battle (of course collecting an impressive array of wounds and losing quite a bit of blood [which is one of the things I'm most concerned about here]). He was lost on the battlefield overnight, captured by the enemy, and then rescued the next afternoon (after said enemy did substantially more damage to him obviously). He was awake on and off for the next week or so but was not "conscious" per se; that is he didn't pay attention to and couldn't interact with any of his surroundings because he had sort of dissociated (it's complicated). Then after all this he goes into a coma for another week or more. Plausible...yes/no?
Author:  Whythawye [ May 4th, 2011, 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
I would highly recommend that you email Dr. Lyle about that one, he really does answer his emails, and he really does give awesome info that would help that scene be incredibly believable. :)

But here is my shot at it.

It completely depends on one thing: whether or not he has a purpose and hope. People can survive seemingly miraculously if they have just that. The only part that would be difficult would be the coma though: the first part is perfectly natural and normal and it makes sense. I think the coma would also be accurate, but I am not positive.
Author:  Aemi [ June 11th, 2011, 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
O Sir? I have another question.
If a person (a young woman) were stabbed, deliberately, in the throat or neck somewhere, with a four inch pocketknife blade, could she survive long enough to get medical attention (about ten minutes)? And would there be permanent damage?
Author:  Willow Wenial Mimetes [ June 13th, 2011, 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
My Dad says that people HAVE survived such a thing, and I read a true story once of a man who was skewered through the neck but it just BARELY missed everything vital. I think it messed his voice up though.

(None of that's scientific though. :D Except the part my Dad said. Apparently he's researched it. :) )
Author:  Whythawye [ June 14th, 2011, 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
* rubs hands together eagerly * This is one of my pet peeves, haha.

Except, I want to warn squeamish people from continuing. I am not graphic, but I do talk matter-of-factly about severe injuries and death. Though of course, why you would be reading this thread if you were squeamish anyways is beyond me. :D

Knives are extremely impractical weapons. The only good thing about them is that they can be carried discretely. Their cutting/penetrating power is almost nothing compared to what is needed to incapacitate a person.

A person can survive multiple stabs in the thoracic region. In fact, unless the person is able to deal severe damage to the heart itself, his only major concern would be blood loss or drowning from hemorrhages. And to reach the heart, you need severe penetrating power, which is only available with a larger weapon like a sword or a gun (and it is extremely difficult even with those). Killing a person with even the best of knife throws borders on impossibility.

The neck is more vulnerable to knife wounds, but again, unless you cut the spinal cord high up or completely sever the blood flow to the brain, you aren't going to cause immediate (or even certain) death. Damage, yes, but not incapacitation. And the spinal cord is nicely defended by the spine anyway, which is going to be almost invulnerable to knife attacks.

The head itself is also more vulnerable, but contrary to popular belief, people can actually survive even direct penetration to the brain. And the skull is quite capable of fending off knife attacks.

Swords are a whole different matter. With a sword you can do all of the above with relative ease. Though remember, still, it is only statistically more likely that a thrust to the chest will kill. Decapitation is your best bet for instant death. :)

(* is laughing at the violent proclivities of writers *)
Author:  Aemi [ June 14th, 2011, 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
So, a single, deliberate stab to the windpipe is not that likely to kill?
Would a member of, say, a street gang think it was a killing wound?
Author:  Whythawye [ June 14th, 2011, 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Aemi wrote:
So, a single, deliberate stab to the windpipe is not that likely to kill?
Would a member of, say, a street gang think it was a killing wound?


Not if he gets help in ten minutes or less and it is capable by modern standards.

But yes, they would think so.
Author:  Aemi [ June 14th, 2011, 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Thank you, O Sir. ;) That was most helpful.
Author:  Whythawye [ June 27th, 2011, 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Another of my pet peeves is choking. A quick death by a thrown knife makes me laugh just as much as someone saying "I can't breathe" or someone choking someone else with an aim to restrict air flow.

Choking (unless you are talking about food inhalation) has nothing to do with air flow.

Surprised? I'm not surprised you are surprised. This myth has been going on for ages. And it is ridiculous. :P

Okay, so when you are choking someone right, this is what happens.

The blood flow through the carotid arteries running up the sides of your neck (slightly in front, beside your windpipe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carotid_artery) is constricted, reducing blood flow to the brain -- not air flow to the lungs. Within six to fifteen seconds you will be unconscious. If the blood flow remains restricted or cut off for another minute or so, brain damage will result. Longer, death can occur.

If you let go after only about ten seconds, the person will probably wake up in a few seconds, and he may not even notice that he was out. Sleeping for hours after a few seconds of choking is... kinda silly. You need tranquilizers and etc. for that to happen.

Oh, and another handy tip: your voice rises as if you are inhaling helium while you are being choked.

And another one: you can't talk if you can't breathe. ;)
Author:  Varon [ July 4th, 2011, 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:

And another one: you can't talk if you can't breathe. ;)


You can't? :shock:
Author:  Whythawye [ July 4th, 2011, 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Magically severing the spinal cord high up would be quite effective. :)

A person could survive a fireball... if he escaped from it fast enough. Lightning can turn someone into a cinder or stop their heart.

Magically cast knives could be thrown at the speed of bullets, which would make them quite effective. Turn you into mincemeat. :D
Author:  Aemi [ July 4th, 2011, 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Thanks for the information about choking, O Sir. ;)

So now. How long can a person sit in a really hot car before dying? And at what point would brain damage set in? When is the point where he can recover with no lasting effects? How long would it take him to recover?
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ July 5th, 2011, 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Okay, interesting about the choking....I wondered if it was something like that. So a few questions:

It would still be accurate then to say that a sword pressed against somebody's throat "cut off their air", right? Am I thinking about two different things?

What kind of brain damage?

How long would it take someone who's been run through from behind to die? (Like, with a sword.) It depends on what organs it hits, right?

I had another one and lost it... :P
Author:  Lady Vilisse Mimetes [ July 5th, 2011, 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
I have a question :) regarding a excerpt I posted in the torture thread in excerpts.

If someone was cut across their eyes with a sword;
How much blood might they loose if it takes 5-10 mins before someone could attend them medically?
Would they lose consciousness or faint from blood loss?
How fast?
Would it possible for them to choke on their own blood?
Is it possible for them to spend sometime in a coma or would they simply sleep to recover?
How long would it take for them to recover to the point of being able to stand and speak?
Would it blind them permanently or could they recover?
Would they die?
Author:  Whythawye [ July 6th, 2011, 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Woah... lots of questions. :shock: I don't know the answers to a lot of those, which means you get to email the Dr. and post his answer here. ;)

But here is what I can do:

Aemi -- My answer to all those questions is, "it depends." Haha. Sorry, I don't know enough details to answer more accurately than that.

E -- No, I don't think it would be very easy for a sword pressed against someone's throat to cut off their air without causing much more notable problems (such as cutting off blood flow or severing the head, depending on the angle of the blade). If it is flat against their throat, the windpipe might collapse before the blood is cut off, but the act of the pressure would probably cut into the windpipe itself, creating other problems.

Brain damage is a complicated subject. And I know next to nothing about it. :D

Yes, it depends entirely on what organs it hits. If it misses the critical ones, the main danger would be from blood loss, which takes a long time to take full effect.

Villisse -- I am actually not sure about the eye questions... they are a good ones to know, though. I would guess that blood loss would not be the primary problem there, though.

They might gag from the taste of what blood goes into their mouth, causing choking, but I doubt enough blood would get in to actually drown them in any way (depending on the cut of course).

Not sure about the coma/unconsciousness question and the following one.

Depends on how deep the cut was (same with all the other questions). But if there is any danger of all the above dangers, then blindness would definitely be permanent.

Infection would be the biggest issue with a cut across the eyes. A huge issue. That would be what endangers the person's life and would put them in coma, etc., I believe.
Author:  Aemi [ July 6th, 2011, 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
*whisper* I think the Administrator is not quite the know-it-all we thought him to be. ;)
Author:  Whythawye [ July 6th, 2011, 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Aemi wrote:
*whisper* I think the Administrator is not quite the know-it-all we thought him to be. ;)


Most indubitably not. * grins *

But if someone would email the Dr. with those questions, I would really love to learn the answers. :)
Author:  Bethany Faith [ July 6th, 2011, 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
But if someone would email the Dr. with those questions, I would really love to learn the answers. :)


*cough* You mean the actual doctor?... Wouldn't he just look at us like we are psychopathic? ;)

*looks over questions*

Vili, your character may actually lose consciousness from the mere shock of the pain of getting your eyes cut with a sword before they pass out from blood loss, I would think, anyways... Considering the eyes are one of the most sensitive places in the body, I'd imagine that would be pretty painful. I had a friend who broke both his arms by falling off a playground (long story...) and he actually passed out from the pain...not a concussion. Which I found interesting...

Aemi, Emeth is really right... It does all depend. ;) It depends on the color of the car, the temperature outside, the amount of shade in the car, the size of the person, the hydration level of the person, and the ventilation system in the car, but I would think you'd have to either A.) stay in the car for a really long time or B.) be in the middle of the desert or something similar to die from being in a hot car...

As far as brain damage... I don't know... But I know heat stroke is actually nothing like a concussion which can easily cause brain damage it's more like fainting. And, like with fainting, the main concern is the fall from standing up to the ground, which can be the cause of a concussion (my mom had fainting spells as a child). A good rule to remember though is that children actually heat up faster than adults due to their size...it takes much less heat to warm up something small than it does to warm up something big.

Anyways... Those are my two cents. :rofl: Don't take my advice for everything, though, most of this is from high school science so I don't know how accurate that is. ;)

Bethany Faith
Author:  Lady Vilisse Mimetes [ July 6th, 2011, 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
I'm considering emailing the Doctor... but must ask parental permission first ;)

If allowed, do you know if he is okay with multiple situations in one email? Or does he prefer one per email?
Author:  Whythawye [ July 7th, 2011, 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
* chuckles at Bethith * No, he's a writer himself, and his goal in life is to answer exactly these kinds of questions for us crazy writers. :D

No I don't think he minds about that, especially if they are all in the same context (getting your eye slashed by a sword for example). Just make sure you follow the rest of his instructions on his site: his spam filter is picky. :D
Author:  Bethany Faith [ July 7th, 2011, 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
* chuckles at Bethith * No, he's a writer himself, and his goal in life is to answer exactly these kinds of questions for us crazy writers. :D


Oh, well that makes a lot more sense in my small intellect mind. :P Haven't heard of him before...just now. :roll:
Author:  Aemi [ July 17th, 2011, 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Science of Death
O Sir, do you know much about head injuries?
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