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Elementals
https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1374		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ October 28th, 2010, 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Elementals
Okay... I thought that elementals were okay -- nonmagical -- and started building a world out around an elemental rock-paper-scissors triangle, but then I went to TVtropes to check out the competition.

Whoa.

I didn't know that it's associated with Buddhism and other Eastern religions -- but in a 4 or 5 element system, usually delving into soulpower for the fourth element. I knew that it was a classical view of science, in a way, but I didn't know it had anything to do with religions/worldviews/philosophies.

I had learned about elements in multiple MegaMan series of games (X, Zero, ZX). Japanese science fiction game about cyborgs and robots which uses that elemental system (plus a fourth element which is outside the triangle -- Shadow) to make beating the bosses more fun. :)

My triangle is sky/wind/air>sea/water/ice>earth/fire/flame. Based around manipulation of weather, from a purely scientific POV. (heh, okay, I broke some laws of physics, but who cares, it's fantasy. ;D)

So, on TVtropes, it says that while most people use it w/o meaning it to have anything to do with....creepy stuff.... there are people who do. [note: I am not recommending tvtropes. They use bad language. But the info there is rather helpful, if not hilariously cliche]

Is anybody going to notice? Is it a real problem? I thought it was just logic, like rock paper scissors.
Author:  Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 28th, 2010, 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
I don't think it's a problem. That's just me, but if you don't want that connotation connected to your story, you could come up with something different to name these "Elementals."
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ October 28th, 2010, 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
Oh, I doubt that in-story I'll refer to them as 'elementals' because it's not in the thought processes of the characters, being fairly pre-scientific-method and all that (typical medieval -- this is the skyelves story). It's just in my notes that they're called elementals. <grin>

Thanks for the thoughts, Willow!
Author:  Lady Elanor [ October 28th, 2010, 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
Elemental Correspondences

The five elements of fire, water, air, earth, and spirit are used by neopagans and occultists in magic and ritual to represent the forces of nature. They are not the same as the table of elements in science.

Below are the symbols and some attributes of each one taken from western magical tradition, which has influenced much of our current magical thought. Nature elementals and other correspondences such as neoshamanic totems are outside the scope of this article.

I googled it and came up with quite a good site if you go onto it it explains what they symbolise etc it's quite interesting.
http://hubpages.com/hub/fiveelements
which expains all about it. I'm not sure exactly what I think of it but it could be seen as delving into things we don't understand about, I'm quite wary of reading books that might have the occult in etc however God uses fire etc in the bible so maybe if it's from a Christian view point its okay.
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ October 28th, 2010, 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
That was one of the possible problems. :P I found the same type of information on TVtropes.

But I'm trying to make it very clear that my 'elements' have nothing to do with spirituality. To you as a reader, would that make a difference? If the characters simply had abilities that were associated with different natural elements, would that be a problem? (see my thread on skyelves for an example of one of the three races)

(btw... I didn't go to the site because one of my firefox addons said it had spam/phishers/viruses on it...)
Author:  Lady Elanor [ October 28th, 2010, 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
Quote:
(btw... I didn't go to the site because one of my firefox addons said it had spam/phishers/viruses on it...)


Sorry about that :( I hope it isn't anything bad on there, it isn't a Christian site but it seemed to explain it quite well. Maybe I shouldn't have bothered with it. Anyway, if I knew you were a Christian author I don't think it would worry me at all. :) I'll read your Sky elves one later - I'm currently making tea so a little busy. I've read Lord of the Rings and that has elements in it and I'm fine with that :) However my brother won't read the Lord Of The Rings because of the elements in it etc. (he thinks it's witchcraft) so I guess its down to individual taste etc. :)
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ October 28th, 2010, 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
LotR has elements in it? ::tries to think:: Oh yeah, at least, in the Silmarillion, there are elements.

Oh, np, it's okay. Just wanted to warn you about it in case it was a real warning -- I'm afraid my firefox addons give me a headache some days for no real reason. (the last time it acted up, it told me that because of the service they used to host their site, a reputable Christian manga website was bad and the addon didn't want to let me on...I finally switched to Chrome for that site)
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ October 28th, 2010, 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
On first read, I didn't associate it with any religion, but I know very little about most pagan religions. I imagine a lot of your audience would also be innocent in this regard, but I wouldn't count on audience ignorance. I'm not, however, surprised to find that it originated there. To me personally, it feels fanatical and magical - in the cobha sense of the word - simply because the clan differences are so pronounced and involve talents that would be impossible in this world. But since it's a fantasy world, I personally can accept it.

Ultimately, you have to decide if you're comfortable with the possible connotations. Some things are associated so thickly with evil that I wouldn't portray them in a positive sense. However, wickedness has construed a lot of otherwise normal things. You'd be surprised at the etymology of some words. I was shocked to find that "prestigious" - I think it was - actually came from a phrase that meant "magical act." (I can't remember if those were the exact words, but it was something like that.) "Gay," as another example, is a perfectly fine word meaning "joyful" which has since been twisted to mean something entirely different. Would I use "gay," for its original meaning, in proper context? Maybe. But I'd have to be careful that my meaning was clear.

I think you have to look at (a) where the associations come from, (b) how strong they are, and (c) how you're using the questionable object. Black cats are often associated with witches. Does that forbid me from having a black cat in my story? Absolutely not! Do I need to be careful how I use a black cat? Yes. I don't want to suggest, by the tone of the scene or the placement of the animal, the wicked connotations. I would avoid, for instance, having a black cat slink in the shadows during a creepy night scene. It's just too typical and too close to the magic associations - unless I were trying to make fun of cliches. But I'd let my MC own a black cat without any problem whatsoever.
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ October 28th, 2010, 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
I'm thinking most people wouldn't see any connotation with the occult. I'm more concerned about eastern religions...

My brother says that it's a common enough genre convention in video games and fantasy (he listed off the slight elementalisms in LotR) that 90% of people will not know the connection, and not care.

I'm probably safe.

::lets breath out::
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ October 28th, 2010, 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
I personally don’t think you will have an issue Jenni, and I also think that your elements are grounded in your world’s DNA so to speak as opposed to a magical demonic element, which I think makes a big difference.
Author:  Seer of Endor [ November 2nd, 2010, 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
I unfortunately know more about the occult than I probably should and I think you'll be safe from that association. As for Eastern Religion connection, your triangle should be fine. It's not your stereotypical element setup, so I doubt anyone will directly associate it with Eastern Religions or any other religions.
Author:  Melody Kondrael [ November 2nd, 2010, 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Elementals
Thanks, Seer and Airianna. I think I'm safe now. :)
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