Holy Worlds Christian Forum
https://archive.holyworlds.org/

Using a God in Novels
https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1180		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 9th, 2010, 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Using a God in Novels
Hi everyone,
I've been turning this over and over in my head over the past few weeks and I've got a few questions about using a God in our fantasy worlds.

First of all, what about the commandments? You shall have no other Gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. In my mind, we're stepping pretty close to the line by having a fantasy God in our fantasy universe. We may be trying to portray a perfect deity, but we're imperfect. That means that our God will have flaws just like we do. And isn't that a slight to the One True God? Also, if we don't specifically say that our God is a representation of the One True God, aren't we setting up for ourselves a graven image?

I'm not trying to condemn anyone here, because, after all, I have The Creator in my book. But what I'm asking is this:

Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?

When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?

So how do we write in the Highest Power in our writing?

So, I guess I should try to answer my own questions. :) I'll try not to get too wordy, but beware.

Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?
In my opinion, this does slight the One True God. We may be intending to point people to God, but really we're giving them our interpretation of what God should be (or how we've seen him to be). This basically is limiting God to what we think. Not only are we imperfect, but we're finite. We can't cram God into our tiny minds.

As far as the implications story-wise go, we may modify our God just to make him work better in our plot or assist our characters in some way. Is that wrong, or is it within the bounds of the imagination that God gave us?

When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?
For me the most bothering aspect of this question is naming the God of our own world. It's for this reason that I've left the God of Enderion named The Creator. I'm just not comfortable with naming a God (essentially at that point separating him from the Real God), because it seems like setting that being up as a separate person from God. But how to get around this?

--

So I guess I can see the theoretical problems with this, but I don't think I've ever seen a fantasy (Christian) novel without a God. Every one has a God. So what do I do if I'm convicted that making my own God for my world is wrong, but I still want to portray the One True God in a way that will bring glory to Him?

eruheran
Author:  Aragorn [ October 9th, 2010, 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
You bring up some thought-provoking questions.

Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?

I'm not sure that it does. People in the parables of Jesus who represent God do not always act as God would act, since Jesus is using stories of flawed people to make theological points clear.

When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?

This is a bit tougher. Since we are not actually giving literal descriptions of the true God, it doesn't seem to be a problem, but on the other hand, some people might be unable to separate the two.

So how do we write in the Highest Power in our writing?

Reverently and carefully, which can be easy to forget, so thanks for the reminder. :)
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 9th, 2010, 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Thanks Jonathan your answers are very good.

Jonathan Garner wrote:
I'm not sure that it does. People in the parables of Jesus who represent God do not always act as God would act, since Jesus is using stories of flawed people to make theological points clear.

That is a point...

Jonathan Garner wrote:
This is a bit tougher. Since we are not actually giving literal descriptions of the true God, it doesn't seem to be a problem, but on the other hand, some people might be unable to separate the two.

Exactly. Readers being unable to distinguish between the two is my worry. Because no matter what our intentions may be, the ultimate test is what the reader ends up with...

Thanks for your answers, though...they definitely brought up some stuff I want to look up further and decide on a personal basis.

eruheran
Author:  Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 9th, 2010, 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Just thought I'd put something out there.

In the C.S. Lewis books, Aslan is "God."

But Lewis always made it clear that he was not making up another God. He was writing about the true God as he manifested himself in Narnia.
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ October 9th, 2010, 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Those are some probing questions, Eruheran.

Q) Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?

A) It can, absolutely, but I think the thing to remember is, if we are portraying a god with flaws, should we be patterning this godhead figure after our most perfect and infinite God? If we want to write such a God then we should base him off of the Greek gods who were full of imperfections. Personally, I don’t see a difference between writing about God and speaking about him in an analogy (or parable, as Jonathan so expertly put it). We may alter His name slightly, but the character we portray should have the characteristics of God the Father. It is a very difficult balance we have to find in our writing when dealing with this subject. I’m glad you brought this up Eruheran, because I would be interested in what other people think.


Q) When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?

A) Again, I think we can. I believe it all comes down to the heart. If we are praying over our words and asking Christ to reveal what he wants us to write, we will have a heart that is desirous of pleasing Him, even if He is not specifically mentioned (or even alluded to) in our books. We can create idols and graven images out of anything, the question is, will we?


Q) So how do we write in the Highest Power in our writing?

A) As I said before, I believe we should trust God with everything, even our writing. Ask God to illuminate what we should be writing. This will solve most of our problems, if we are willing to listen (and that is where the hard part comes in). God has given us dominion over literature, we are to use this gift wisely. We should approach writing with fear and trembling, understanding the power that fantasy has over the mind. I guess I would say to keep Christ at the forefront of our minds; His light will make it easier for us to see the path we should follow.

I think these were good questions to ask, Eruheran.
Author:  Neil of Erk [ October 9th, 2010, 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?

Yes. If you are setting up as the One True God a god which is not perfect, your either misrepresenting God or, worse yet, setting up a different god.

When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?

Yes. You cannot create a god for your story. As C.S.Lewis might have told you if you'd asked him, God is the God of all worlds, real or imagined. In all possible realities, only one God.

So how do we write in the Highest Power in our writing?

Study His attributes. Know His Word. Pray. Remember, C.S.Lewis didn't invent Aslan, he simply asked the question, what might God do in Narnia?
Author:  Lord Kieren Mimetes [ October 9th, 2010, 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
eruheran wrote:
Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?

When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?

So how do we write in the Highest Power in our writing?

eruheran


Okay, these are tough questions and I haven't really thought over them much, but I'll give my two cents.

To the first question, it can. Jonathan had a good point in his post. I would say that what you have to do is have the God in your books as God. In my book, He doesn't represent God, He is God. We don't want commit the sin of Jeroboam and show a false representation.

To the second, I would say the same thing. It shouldn't be our idea of God, it should be God. You have to be very careful about this. True, we can't create something perfect because we are imperfect, but we aren't creating Him, He is already there.

In giving God names, there are many names for God in Hebrew, some of which don't appear in the Bible. In a way, God the word is just a word, but God the Deity is God the Deity. Even our words are just a representation of what God is.

To the last question, I can't really say anything other than what has already been said, so I'll just agree with them. :D
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 10th, 2010, 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Willow Wenial wrote:
In the C.S. Lewis books, Aslan is "God."

But Lewis always made it clear that he was not making up another God. He was writing about the true God as he manifested himself in Narnia.


Very true. But for some reason I always considered Narnia kind of in a class of it's own. Because of the nature of the story (two worlds with communication between), Lewis could make very clear that Aslan was God manifested in Narnia.

All good answers, everyone...you've definitely given me a lot to think about, though I'm still hesitant to include a God in my story. I just don't want to risk readers misunderstanding everything. Argh! This is such a tricky subject...I'm going to shut up and let more people reply because I really want to see the consensus on this.

eruheran
Author:  Lady Eruwaedhiel [ October 18th, 2010, 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Very, very interesting points, eruheran. I shall think on these and answer them as best I can. Thank you for bringing this up. It is ... uncommonly deep. :)

Q) Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?

A) Yes. I was disturbed by Ted Dekker's Green because of the portrayal of God/Elyon. He didn't seem to be omniscient (all-knowing). He didn't seem to be omnipotent (all-powerful). And you didn't see Him often (which definitely doesn't point to omnipresence). I believe we have to be careful when portraying God because we often ascribe to Him traits of our own finite nature. I myself am guilty of this and will read over most carefully the parts that portray Him and make sure they match up with Scripture.

Q) When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?

A) If we are creating a God to go in our fantasy world, then yes. If we are, as Lewis so aptly pointed out, merely showing that God is in fact still God in another world, no. I think it is hard bordering on impossible to write specifically Christian fantasy without God being involved. Of course, we could always just write clean fantasy, but if the glory doesn't go to God the whole endeavor is wasted. And it's hard to give glory to Someone who doesn't appear in your story.

Q) So how do we write in the Highest Power in our writing?

A) Very carefully. :D Study His character and pray for Him to show Himself to you so you can accurately portray Him. Make precision a priority, and above all remember your goal to bring glory to Him. If you are portraying Him in a way that will not bring Him glory, change it.

Again, eruheran, thank you for bringing this up.
Lady E
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ October 18th, 2010, 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
We are flawed. Everything we write will be flawed in some way. Whenever you represent a theological issue, you're painting your understanding, your beliefs, your worldview - how you interpret the Bible. Even if you write a modern-day story with Christians, you're writing God from your perspective. Nobody is perfect. Nobody will be. That's okay. God can still use you. I think what the others have said is the highest advice - you have to pray about it. Are you right with God over this work? That's the ultimate test - the only way.

Now, for what I personally believe... In reality, if there were other worlds, God would be the author and ruler of them as well. However, as my mother put it, "the Bible was given to the sons of Adam." There is no other world mentioned in the Bible, and for that reason I will not take the Bible put it in another world. I will not have elves preaching the Gospel. It doesn't seem right to me, and it doesn't make logical sense. Similarly, I don't think talking vegetables, stuffed animals, or dogs, even if they're placed in this world, should pray or be "saved."

Additionally, for the same reasons expressed by others on this thread, I am personally not comfortable with creating an allegory for God. I do not feel qualified. I also don't think allegorical representations are the strongest route literary-wise. They tend to be cliche and flat, as I have read. Superficial.

My preference is to have no "religion" in any world other than the one we're standing on. (I also think you should take religion out if you're going to do something hyper-fanatical to this world, like tell a story with talking cars.) It avoids dishonoring the Bible in anyway, and I do not think it makes an inferior story. You can still portray a Christian worldview strongly, if not more strongly, without "religion." Have you watched the promo video for this site? (The link's on the home page.) I believe that's what Lewis is talking about with the quote featured on the video. And I think he's right.

I think The Fellowship of the Ring is an excellent example. To be honest, I did not have high expectations when I first read that book - and I was shocked. The narrative was soaked with Christian principles. Some of the characters' statements were so OTN (that's on-the-nose, screenwriting speak for being painfully obvious and direct) that it was almost preachy. The "good guys" followed a Christian worldview; the "bad guys" did not. Yet there was no "religion," no "god." Frodo wasn't a believer, follower, or apostle. But the story taught a lesson, and it was clean and safe. It promoted, organically and naturally, a Christian perspective, simply because the author's Christian worldview was intrinsic in the narrative.

That is my current theory. I'm still learning. God's still working on me. But that's what I think, coupled with the beliefs of my parents.

All of that to say, in response to your questions... 1) Presenting a flawed narrative is inevitable, but God can still be honored through our imperfect attempt. I would absolutely not purposefully flaw your representation of Him; I do believe that will slight His image. But if you're right with Him over the story, even if it's not perfect, He will use it for His glory.

2) I would not consider it an idol, but I personally don't believe it's the most effective route. There is always the place for partial-allegories, where characters do things as Christ would (sacrificing themselves for another not worthy of their love, etc.) but are not portrayed as God.

3) However He directs you to. Be right with Him, that is all. I prefer not to attempt to portray God Himself, but rather the principles He taught us. What else have I really authority to teach? I cannot elaborate on God. I can, however, show another human what God has taught me about life. I can show how Biblical principles can be applied to my actions.

Wonderful topic. Pardon the verbose post.
Author:  Kiev Shawn [ October 18th, 2010, 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I would agree with Philli that our writing is not going to be perfect, but God can use us. I haven't created a "religion" so to speak, in my world yet.

I thought the Passages books by Paul McCusker handled it really well, a lot like C.S. Lewis did. One of the characters would mention "The Unseen One." The character would ask something along the lines of, "You mean, God?" The first character would say something like "The Lord is one."

Anyways, that's my 2 bits worth.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 19th, 2010, 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Philadelphia wrote:
My preference is to have no "religion" in any world other than the one we're standing on. (I also think you should take religion out if you're going to do something hyper-fanatical to this world, like tell a story with talking cars.) It avoids dishonoring the Bible in anyway, and I do not think it makes an inferior story. You can still portray a Christian worldview strongly, if not more strongly, without "religion." Have you watched the promo video for this site? (The link's on the home page.) I believe that's what Lewis is talking about with the quote featured on the video. And I think he's right.


This is very interesting...what stuck out to me out of your entire post. The part about portraying a Christian worldview more strongly without a religion is definitely thought-provoking. You all have made some very good points.

eruheran
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ October 19th, 2010, 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
That was an interesting observation Philli. I personally do not have a "god" in my books, but I write everything through my Christian principles. I thought this was an interesting spin. I'll have to think on the thought some more, but it was a stimulating muse.
Author:  Aragorn [ October 20th, 2010, 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I think it would be hard to have a principled world where there is no explicit Principle. Values can't just be right, they have to be taught by a trustworthy higher authority, because otherwise there is nothing to stop circumstances from causing peoples' values to change to fit certain situations. If our characters are in a principled world without an explicit Principle, we might almost become their hidden God, dictating to them their values without giving a logical explanation to our readers of where these values come from and why they are not temporal.
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ October 20th, 2010, 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
That is a very good point, Jonathan. People do, however, have a "law written on their hearts," built in by human nature and culture:

Quote:
For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. ~Romans 2:11-16


People have a moral code, even those that believe themselves to be atheists. Culture's definition of good and evil can change, but as the author of a fictional world, you're in control.

I also think this is the beauty of fiction. It is not real life; rather, it's designed to be absorbed by someone in real life. Even if your work does not make reference to a religion, it is being read by someone with a worldview. When I read, I judge by my worldview. If there's a Biblical moral in the story, even in secular works, I can detect it. I can think of Scripture to support (or refute) principles presented in the story. If something matches with my worldview, it drives home. If it contradicts with my worldview, I mark it and reject it.

I am thinking along the vein of most children's books. Many a picture book deals with a make-believe creature - a talking doll, cat, or mushroom. These whimsical beings learn a little lesson in a tale that is completely fantasy - but the moral is real. The talking mouse learns not to lie; the children also pick up the lesson. The mouse doesn't pray to God and ask for forgiveness; he doesn't need to, and I don't believe he should because he is not human. But the children reading the story learn the lesson. That is one of the purposes of storytelling, to teach a lesson, a purpose most of us here hold as vital.

I am by no means degrading the essence of putting "God," however literal, in your stories. There is definitely a need for stories where everyday, realistic Christians talk, pray, and live - but fantasy may not be the place. That's not for me to say. But if God is dictating what you write, His nature will shine through. Your worldview will be evident. The book will present your standards as the desired norm. The name of the Lord is not mentioned once in the entire book of Esther.
Author:  Aragorn [ October 20th, 2010, 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
We have the law written on our hearts, but it was written there by God, and it is a knowledge of God, not simply a knowledge of the values of God, that will ultimately affect people the most.

However, I understand that short works, such as fairy tales and picture books, can teach individual lessons without having to invoke God, yet in a longer work, a foundation seems to be needed for the values to be built upon. Esther is a notable exception, but it is an exception, and not the rule.

This is a good conversation, by the way. :)
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ October 20th, 2010, 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I'm not sure what you meant by 'Esther is a notable exception, but it is an exception, and not a rule' Jonathan. Could you expound on this thought more so that I can more clearly know what you mean?
Author:  Aragorn [ October 20th, 2010, 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Esther is a secular book that indirectly shows God's love for His people even after they had gone astray. Most books of the Bible are more explicit in their acknowledgement of God, and this presented some interesting questions to me:

1. Should our books reflect the same pattern, most or all showing God, and perhaps some not showing Him, instead just showing good values?

2. If not, how do books that have good values without God justify their values? And should such books be in the majority?
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ October 20th, 2010, 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I think it largely depends on the kind of story you're writing. For me personally, I won't put the Bible directly in a fantasy world because I believe it's dishonoring; I prefer a Tolkien-style approach with Christian worldview implied. If I didn't feel that it was dishonoring, I probably would have literal Christianity in my made-up worlds. For me, it's a personal boundary I have set.

On the other hand, many of my stories that are set in this world have a heavy emphasis on Christianity. Some plots hinge on religious struggle; in others, Christianity is an element of the characters' personality. And there are yet other stories where a direct mention of the Bible does not come into play at all.

Why? For awhile I struggled with this; the first time I noticed that a work didn't have direct references to Christianity, I wondered. Yet, that's simply the way it's coming out. Maybe that's the way God wants it to come out. If He's directing the work and providing the inspiration (which I truly believe He does if He wishes the work to get off the ground), then He will write it as He sees fit.

I believe there's a place for all levels of Christianity in stories. It depends on what you're writing, for whom, and for what purpose. It's also simply between you and the Lord. What are your boundaries? Only you can set them. I am just relating what I believe about fiction. I see a high value in stories that teach principles, with or without religion. The world needs dragon riders with a sense of Biblical moral! I also see a great need for true, everyday Christian fiction. For my personal convictions, fantasy (for the most part) needs to teach with Christianity implied, not literal. I believe this is possible and honoring if done right. But that is what I believe, coupled with the thoughts of my parents. Every writer is different, and it's interesting to hear their side.
Author:  Aragorn [ October 21st, 2010, 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Philadelphia wrote:
Every writer is different, and it's interesting to hear their side.


I agree. This forum is a good place to do that.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 21st, 2010, 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Jonathan Garner wrote:
Philadelphia wrote:
Every writer is different, and it's interesting to hear their side.


I agree. This forum is a good place to do that.


I know...I'm still sitting on the fence for the most part, but reading everyone's comments on this issue has been insanely helpful for me, in a way you guys don't even know. . .not just in my story but my personal life as well. Y'all are great!

eruheran
Author:  Arias Mimetes [ October 21st, 2010, 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I think it'd perfectly fine to use God in novels. Or you could just write from your worldview, and Christianity would be obvious. I think either way is fine.
Dragon Egg
If the God in your novels were to speak, maybe you could use verses from the Bible? Then it would be things He has actually said.

Of course, if the character isn't perfect, we shouldn't say he represents God.
Author:  Neil of Erk [ October 22nd, 2010, 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Philadelphia wrote:
The name of the Lord is not mentioned once in the entire book of Esther.


And yet, God is clearly present. Esther was never meant to stand alone, it was meant for us to understand in context of the rest of the Bible.

God is the focal point of everything. You want morality in your book? God is the source. You want your worldview, you better have God. Remember, our worldview isn't really ours, but us seeing the world through the lens of the Bible: looking at the world through as much of the eyes of God as we can fathom.

A Christian worldview without a Christ, morality without God, and a universe without a Creator God, are all impossible, and dangerous. How can you honor God through your fiction if you don't even mention Him?

Besides that, you can't really escape God anyway. Remember the Christian meta-narrative: Creation, Corruption, Christ, Consummation. All stories follow this pattern: there is an ideal state, something bad happens, the character does something to fix it, and everything goes back to normal. Either that or stories buck this pattern, and we end up with our characters all dying somehow, and we end without hope.

God is the God of all worlds...real or imagined. You can't exclude Him, and you shouldn't try to.
Author:  Hannah Marie [ October 22nd, 2010, 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I do not think God needs to be completely present to make a novel carry a message about our Lord. See, if you use the method correctly, using allegorical or representative characters can actually carry much of the same weight. If a book does not seem to be completely centered on God as the Lord of all, the distinction between good and evil should be very clear and good portrayed as good and evil portrayed as evil. There really is no other way around that. God does not have to be specifically mentioned, but as soon as you start blending good with evil, you really get in trouble with the message you are trying to send others.
Author:  Neil of Erk [ October 23rd, 2010, 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Lady Esmeralda wrote:
See, if you use the method correctly, using allegorical or representative characters can actually carry much of the same weight.


But, then, technically, God is not absent. A representation is a representation of a real thing, you know. In a picture of a bridge, the bridge is there. (The picture being a representation, the bridge being the real thing.)
Author:  Hannah Marie [ October 23rd, 2010, 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Yes, that is correct. I think what I was mainly trying to confirm, Jordan, is that we do not have to specifically state God or have a God in our novels to make it all about Him. Whether we use representation or the real thing, since God is so a part of our hearts and lives, we will naturally want to include Him in our writings. For me, I personally write everything I have for the Lord. Thus, not including Him or characteristics of Him taught within His word throughout my novel really makes no sense to me.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 23rd, 2010, 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Quote:
Yes, that is correct. I think what I was mainly trying to confirm, Jordan, is that we do not have to specifically state God or have a God in our novels to make it all about Him. Whether we use representation or the real thing, since God is so apart of our hearts and lives, we will naturally want to include Him in our writings. For me, I personally write everything I have for the Lord. Thus, not including Him or characteristics of Him taught within His word throughout my novel really makes no sense to me.


Sort of like that C.S. Lewis quote that the world doesn't need more little books about Christianity but more books with Christianity in them. I totally agree with you in that.

eruheran
Author:  RedWing the Purple [ October 28th, 2010, 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
This is a topic I have struggled with for a long time. I'm not really sure where to turn in this area. I'm very torn. One of my stories for a long time has been leaning in the direction of an allegory. Others do not. I feel hesitancy when writing either.

On one hand, a story without God can be very misleading, even when told from a very Christian point of view. (Though, I wouldn't say it's always the case.) I agree with a lot that's been said on this point. For example: A secular person is browsing the bookstore. She picks up the book, reads it. If God isn't present, and she's coming from a very secular view, she might think 'See! I can be good all by myself!'

No, no, no, no, no.

Another example is brought about in the movie "Time Changer." Basically it's what society looks like when one takes Christian values and takes out God. People say "you have to act this way." Another person says, "Says who?"

Yes. We all have God's word written on our hearts. But we have the remarkable ability to be able to ignore it. If we didn't, Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned, and there would have been no need for Christ's coming to die on the cross.

And then there's this. Can I really glorify God in a book that doesn't include God? How would one even define 'include?'

ON THE OTHER HAND.

Writing a secular book with good morals can be a. Very. Good. Influence. Especially with the kind of junk there is out there now on the shelves. I know of several people who won't touch the Christian section of a bookstore with a ten foot pole. And if there's no clean, secular stuff out there, people are being bombarded with ungodly and sinful materiel, influences, and worldviews. It can often times be a starting point, or a first step.

And also, there's the story of the Prodigal Son. Is God even mentioned? No. The Father is obviously a representation of God the Father. It is a beautiful painting of the relationship between God and his Children. The Bible uses representations and paintings of these things all the time. (But, the story of the Prodigal Son is in the Bible. Thus, it is obviously Biblical. Will our stories be so obvious?)

Then, there's another point. If I'm taking God into another world, with it's own 'version' of Christianity, then I'm basically painting God into my own picture. I may be doing my very best to do it right. I may be putting many hours of research to make sure I don't get something wrong.

But I'm still doing it. And being human, even if I spend hundreds of hours on the subject, I still won't get the perfect allegory. I may not even be able to detect what I got wrong. But I will get something wrong.

I'm human. Being human, I'm sinful. Something so sinful cannot accurately portray Someone so Perfect, Holy, Awesome, Amazing...I just can't. Which is probably where my conscience troubles me the most. I get very cautious when dealing with this. Painting a false portrait of God, in my mind, is a dangerous place to stand.

Sorry if this post creates more questions then answers. ;) I'm just describing what I've been battling with in my mind for such a long time.

If I had to research a conclusion now, I'd probably say it really depends on who you're writing for. And then pray. Read your Bible. Do your homework. Pray some more. And listen for the answer.

Neil of Erk wrote:
In a picture of a bridge, the bridge is there. (The picture being a representation, the bridge being the real thing.)


I like that description. I also thought of it this way. ;) The bridge is your foundation. (God.) You are standing on the bridge, and you have a camera. You take a picture of the surrounding landscape, and you end up with an image that portrays the landscape from the view, or worldview, of the bridge. But you can't see the bridge in the actual image, but it can be made obvious that you were standing on a bridge while taking the picture. Though not physically there, it's still very much there.

Sorry for the long post. Cookies for anyone who read it all.

(Warning: Cookies are made by RedWing. All cookies, therefore, may not be edible.)

Moderator's Note: Italicized slash-enclosed words for easier readability.
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ October 28th, 2010, 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I didn't have dessert... a cookie sounds great! :D I read it all, RedWing. I haven't anything else to add to this topic, but I wanted to say that I read your post and I think you raised some good points. I can also say that you're struggling with the same issues as the rest of us - you're not alone.
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ October 29th, 2010, 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I echo Philli's post. However, I don't like redundant redundancies, so I won't repeat her eloquent words since I'd just say the same thing.
Author:  Kiev Shawn [ October 29th, 2010, 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Same here. (Including the part about dessert. :D)
Author:  Neil of Erk [ October 30th, 2010, 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
RedWing wrote:
Neil of Erk wrote:
In a picture of a bridge, the bridge is there. (The picture being a representation, the bridge being the real thing.)


I like that description. I also thought of it this way. ;) The bridge is your foundation. (God.) You are standing on the bridge, and you have a camera. You take a picture of the surrounding landscape, and you end up with an image that portrays the landscape from the view, or worldview, of the bridge. But you can't see the bridge in the actual image, but it can be mad obvious that you were standing on a bridge while taking the picture. Though not physically there, it's still very much there.


Like Esther. In fact, God's presence is more clear because of the simple lack of emphasis.

A lot of you are having qualms about writing things which may not be true, or applying the Bible beyond it's proper realm. Here's a couple things.

1. The Bible is the Word of God. God is the God of everything (real or otherwise) and therefore, His Word is relevant to everything. Remember that all morality is ultimately rooted in the nature of God, and God's nature is the same in all worlds.

2. If you have any theological preferences (Predestination, or grace? etc.) then you are making a presumption about God and the Bible based on an imperfect mind and imperfect logic. Everything you believe is a presumption on a certain level. There's nothing wrong with presuming on God while putting Him into your fantasy, and in fact, trying to keep Him out is probably much more presumptuous.

Basically, what is being communicated is that, because we can't understand God and don't want to get things wrong, we should force Him out. I'm sorry, but that's deadly wrong. (And I mean deadly...morals without Christ? Dangerous. A world without a Creator? Impossible!)

God is necessary. Even if He's merely implied as a consequence of your worldview (as in RedWing's bridge analogy) He is nevertheless and essential part of your story.

"What we need are not more little books about Christianity, but more little books about other things [with the Christianity inherent in them]."

Would you cut the heart of Christianity out of your little book?
Author:  Hisart [ October 30th, 2010, 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Could you write a Historical Fiction piece about a soldier in the Aztec Military circa 100AD? God was there, Christ had risen and the Holy Spirit had been poured out. What is the difference if it's a SciFi/Fan piece about a soldier in the Arcturian Military circa 2050AD? God would be there, Christ is still risen and the Holy Spirit has been poured out for 2kyrs. In both cases He is the unknown God that Paul preached to the Romans, The Redeemer they have yet to know.

As for an imperfect God, maybe what they are worshiping is simply another guise of satan that is being used to alter their righteous path?

Maybe they heard wrong, or incompletely and they are simply following what the believe they heard God say. The revelation of the truth could be a part of the story.

The Holy Spirit wrote:
Act 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."


These people had a sliver of the truth and obeyed what they had, even if it was partial. Their walk was imperfect and faulty, not in obedience to the truths revealed in the Bible. Yet God honored their obedience to the truth that they had received and they received the whole truth that very hour!

We can mold our literary worlds around The Word without adding or subtracting from it.

That's my two pence. ;)
Author:  PrincessoftheKing [ October 31st, 2010, 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
My ideas are like those already posted, so I won't put them here, but I wanted y'all to know that I've been watching this, and I've really enjoyed the discussion so far!
I especially like your bridge illustration, RedWing! :)
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ November 4th, 2010, 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Quote:
2. If you have any theological preferences (Predestination, or grace? etc.) then you are making a presumption about God and the Bible based on an imperfect mind and imperfect logic. Everything you believe is a presumption on a certain level. There's nothing wrong with presuming on God while putting Him into your fantasy, and in fact, trying to keep Him out is probably much more presumptuous.

True...

Quote:
Basically, what is being communicated is that, because we can't understand God and don't want to get things wrong, we should force Him out. I'm sorry, but that's deadly wrong.

That wasn't what I've been understanding. I'm not exactly sure the conclusions I've drawn from this discussion, but I didn't draw this at all. It's definitely a very fine line we need to walk but I agree that we should never force Him out....that's definitely wrong.

eruheran
Author:  Willow Wenial Mimetes [ November 10th, 2010, 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
This whole issue is why God does not always take a direct, obvious, I don't know...active role in my stories? I mean, of course he's always working behind the scenes, and I make that obvious. And the story is written based on my Christian assumptions, but I would never want to put my idea of God as truth out there, because I'm sure that there are flaws to my view of God. I'm not perfect, and I don't understand and never will understand him perfectly.

Thus, I don't feel comfortable delving into deep issues of theology in my books. I think if I wrote more of what happened in the real world, I might go a LITTLE deeper into that, but when doing a fantasy world, I don't think that's wise, because that world really doesn't exist (as much as I feel like it does :D) and I really DON'T know how God would choose to show himself in such a world. I'm just writing about a possibility.

Does that all make sense?
Author:  RedWing the Purple [ November 10th, 2010, 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
eruheran wrote:
Quote:
Basically, what is being communicated is that, because we can't understand God and don't want to get things wrong, we should force Him out. I'm sorry, but that's deadly wrong.


That wasn't what I've been understanding. I'm not exactly sure the conclusions I've drawn from this discussion, but I didn't draw this at all. It's definitely a very fine line we need to walk but I agree that we should never force Him out....that's definitely wrong.


No, do not shove Him out. That I do believe is wrong.

Quote:
2. If you have any theological preferences (Predestination, or grace? etc.) then you are making a presumption about God and the Bible based on an imperfect mind and imperfect logic. Everything you believe is a presumption on a certain level. There's nothing wrong with presuming on God while putting Him into your fantasy, and in fact, trying to keep Him out is probably much more presumptuous.


Yes. But my fear is that if I put Him in my own world, I will turn Him into something He's not. Which would also be wrong.

I've seen many very well done allegories. I've also seen some that aren't. One book had this world and another world paralleled to each other. Which I normally wouldn't have an issue with. But in this book, the Parallel world and this world were once the same place, and it later split. God, as the King, was in this story, and all the people in that world needed to follow him. Which is fine.

The issue I had was that in this world too, the people of this world needed to follow that way of salvation also. It cut out the Bible, I do not believe it was even mentioned. It cut out Christ. Which I'm sorry, but I believe that was wrong.

I guess what I struggle with most is where to draw the line.

I agree with Willow. :)
Author:  Aragorn [ November 11th, 2010, 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Ultimately, I think most books need at the very least an acknowledgement of the existence of God, in a literal and sincere sense, and not a vague 'there's a god up there somewhere' sense. Then, with that as your foundation, you can explore whatever aspect of Christianity morality and theological truth that fits the story and you feel up to tackling.
Author:  Zahch Perach [ November 17th, 2010, 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Before answering your questions, I'd like to give a little bit of input and maybe even provoke some more thoughts/discussion. :)

Who says that we have to have a fantasy God? Maybe another way to look at it is having the One True God in your fantasy world. I believe that it's completely within the the realm of fantasy writing to portray Christ/God as the Scriptures reveal to us in our stories without having to distort God's character in any way. Giving Him a name other than the usual "God," "Christ," "Jesus," etc. would be fine (as long as it's appropriate, of course) seeing as He has many, many names in the Bible, and a number of them sound fantasy-typish. And even if the focus of your writing wasn't specifically on God, I still believe that you can glorify Him with your work by incorporating Christian principals and making others think about their lives and the choices they make.

(P.S. Excuse me if I have reiterated anything that has already been discussed since I don't have to time to read through everyone's (I'm sure) wonderful posts. :))


Does having an imperfect fantasy God slight the One True God?

Yes, if you are trying to make God something that He isn't or trying to portray Him differently than what Scripture dictates.

When we create a God are we setting up a graven image of our idea of what a God should be?

Well, you don't have to create a "god", but when you start to show God as something different than what the Word says He is, then yes, I think you'd be creating a 'graven image' in a sense.

So how do we write in the Highest Power in our writing?

By knowing what God says in His Word of Himself and displaying that in our stories in creative ways, we can show who God really is and what it really means to follow Him.
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ November 17th, 2010, 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Quote:
Who says that we have to have a fantasy God? Maybe another way to look at it is having the One True God in your fantasy world. I believe that it's completely within the the realm of fantasy writing to portray Christ/God as the Scriptures reveal to us in our stories without having to distort God's character in any way. Giving Him a name other than the usual "God," "Christ," "Jesus," etc. would be fine (as long as it's appropriate, of course) seeing as He has many, many names in the Bible, and a number of them sound fantasy-typish. And even if the focus of your writing wasn't specifically on God, I still believe that you can glorify Him with your work by incorporating Christian principals and making others think about their lives and the choices they make.


This is why I've named God the Creator in my book. It's a biblical name, and it works. I agree with what you said. =)

eruheran
Author:  Zahch Perach [ November 17th, 2010, 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
eruheran wrote:
This is why I've named God the Creator in my book. It's a biblical name, and it works. I agree with what you said. =)

eruheran


Mhmm, I think that name works very well. :)
Author:  Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ November 20th, 2010, 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
It works for me. =D

eruheran
Author:  Aemi [ February 26th, 2012, 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
My problem: God didn't exactly create my world. So would it be blasphemous to say He did?

I've mostly come to terms with this by making my world very similar to ours. So similar, in fact, that it could be this one (except for the unicorns...). No magic, no non-human people. This way I feel more comfortable with having God in my story.
Author:  Rachel Newhouse [ February 26th, 2012, 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
At the risk of being off-topic - Aemi, are unicorns the only thing that makes your world "fantasy"? Unicorns are mentioned in the Bible, so I think they are a fair creature to feature in this world. Certainly, it wouldn't be very difficult to say that humans bred horses with a similar horned animal to make "unicorns."

Back on topic, I personally think it is better not to say God created our fantasy worlds, since in reality He did not, but many people believe differently. Ultimately I think it comes down to personal conviction. Are you uncomfortable with it? Don't do it.
Author:  The Wolverminion [ February 26th, 2012, 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Hmm.

He created everything. All things come from him. That includes your fantasy world. It is indirect, just like the pizza you have for dinner is indirectly made by God. But he made your mind with the ability for creative thought, and indeed, if we are to endeavor to live like Jesus Christ (through whom all things were made), isn't it logical that we not only CAN create fantasy worlds, but if that is our area of talent, we SHOULD?

I go a variety of ways. I have fantasy worlds with a creator in them. His name is Qen, which in the language of that world means 'creator.' I have alternate-dimension fantasy worlds like Narnia that have the same God as this world, only with a different name. I have books set in the real world that don't mention God at all...

One of them, The Unseen, actually has one small reference to God. It has two verses of Be Thou My Vision in it. The point of that book, however, is to get people thinking about their mortality and how they should be living given the fact that they will die, and whatever you believe, there's a distinct possibility that there is something after death. That book doesn't give the answers...I leave that up to the Bible and 'Christian fiction.' Because I'm not writing for Christians. I'm writing for everybody.

Somebody mentioned Ted Dekker's 'Elyon'. If you didn't know, Elyon is not from Dekker, it's actually a name for our God. I don't know where it came from, but I know it's old. So what you take issue with is how he portrays God? Somebody else mentioned that everybody has different viewpoints, everybody looks at God and sees something a bit different. And that's good, because when we come together and start talking about it, we can gain a better understanding of Him by hearing what other people think, even if we don't agree with them.
Author:  cephron [ February 26th, 2012, 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
It occurs to me that, in technicality, the author is the creator of the fictional world. You dictate everything that is and goes on, in a rather hypercalvinistic sense. So, if you wanted to have the characters in the book aware of the literal truth, they would acknowledge you, the author, as god, and it would be up to you whether you endow them with the knowledge of a higher God (ie. your God, the real God, the Trinity). However, it seems kinda useless to follow this route. :? You can't offer your characters salvation in any real way, nor can you incarnate yourself in your story in any real way. Nor can you promise your characters that the "higher God" would offer them salvation or adoption--they're representations of people, not people. So, writing your characters honestly on this basis would be giving them a pretty bleak "existence".

Has anyone seen this done well? With an author considering themself the god of their world, acknowledging the greater God above themself? While it might be an interesting experiment, I can't see it connecting with readers much. :rofl:
Author:  Airianna Valenshia [ February 26th, 2012, 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Interesting thought, but I think I agree with you. There wouldn't be a strong reason to attempt it...
Author:  RunningWolf [ February 27th, 2012, 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Okay, I'm entering late, so if someone already said everything that I'm about to say or if what I say here is totally not helpful...sorry. :?

I think these are very good/important questions. Though I didn't ask them myself, I have been thinking about how hard it would be to have a representation of God in my writing.
I think you have to just pray that people won't misunderstand what you say, and at the same time realize that some people will (there are those that think the Chronicles of Narnia support Wicca). You just need to remember God is in control, and can reveal himself to those he will (possibly through what you write!).
The way I think I'll be approaching this in my own writing is to sort of imply that there is more to God than is let on in the story. Every little thing he says will hopefully give a sense that he is great, but there will be things that are impossible to understand for any human that I will try to 'show' by allusion.
I'm going to have people that I believe are solid in the faith tell me what they think of what I have, and I'm going to pray that God would help me know what of my writing is good and what is bad.
I hope this helps even though I didn't directly answer your questions and probably enough people did that anyway...

*drops 0.02¢ plink! plink!*
Author:  Aemi [ February 27th, 2012, 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
I think that was a very good contribution, RunningWolf. Thank you.
Author:  cephron [ February 27th, 2012, 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a God in Novels
Aemi wrote:
I think that was a very good contribution, RunningWolf. Thank you.
Seconded! :salute:

To imply there's "more to God" than we're letting on makes total sense. I think C.S.Lewis treated Aslan and the Emperor-over-the-sea in this way, didn't he?
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/