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Age Gaps https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1168	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 8th, 2010, 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Age Gaps
In my Nano this year, I am tossing around the idea of arranged marriage. This young girl, (late teens) will marry a much older man (mid-fourties perhaps?), who is actually a friend of her father's. And...I'm going to treat it as a positive thing (for the most part). What do ya'll think? Do you think this is too out there? I can't come up with a reason for why the marriage would be morally objectionable. And I feel it's a lot different from most stories where girls are horrified at the suite. But it also seems kind of weird to me. lol. Any thoughts?

Author:	Lady Eruwaedhiel [ October 8th, 2010, 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Read Jane Eyre! In those days it wasn't considered 'weird' for things like this to happen, and even today it still shouldn't be. Jane was 18 and Mr. Rochester was in his forties, I think. Age shouldn't be a barrier. My mom and my dad are ten years apart, and while we think of this as a tremendous gap at ten, when we're thirty it doesn't seem so bad. shrug Just my random and potentially unhelpful thoughts.

Author:	Lady Terra [ October 8th, 2010, 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I agree with Lady E, I dont really think it should be a big barrier.

Author:	Yehoshua [ October 8th, 2010, 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I've actually been toying around with a similar idea though my characters would be closer in age. Yeah (pardon my Midwest-ism), I think it's definitely acceptable. Out of curiosity, what would your characters' take be on the whole thing? Would they be wholeheartedly for the arranged marriage or would they have some reservations which would later be overcome?

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 8th, 2010, 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Actually, in Jane Eyre, I believe he was maybe...13 years older than she was? So, yeah. Older, but not quite to the extent of it being terribly weird. I know what you mean though. I could just imagine people shouting at me though, and saying I was advocating arranged marriages and child brides.:P And their takes are very similar. They're both resigned. Neither one is really interested in a relationship. He is a widower with a son who is actually her age. And she's only marrying him because she has no way of supporting herself.

Author:	PrincessoftheKing [ October 8th, 2010, 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
One of my grandma's best friends married a man who was almost 40 years older than her, and she said they were one of they happiest married couples she ever met. Also, he had a son (and a daughter, I think) that was her age. The only sad part is that he died a while ago, when he was close to 90, and she was still like 55. But she is a missionary in Ukraine now, and is doing some amazing stuff over there.

Author:	Arias Mimetes [ October 8th, 2010, 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I personally find it strange, but I don't really think there's anything morally wrong with it. I do have a question though. If she's only marrying him because she can't support herself, why not marry the guy's son since the son is her age? I understand it is an arranged marriage, but why would her father not have her marry his friend's son instead?

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 8th, 2010, 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Well, see...this son is not necessarily the most savory person. But she doesn't know that, so she's very annoyed that she ISN'T marrying him instead. But...his Dad is a much better person morally.

Author:	Neil of Erk [ October 9th, 2010, 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Willow Wenial wrote: In my Nano this year I am tossing around the idea of arranged marriage. This young girl, (late teens) will marry a much older man. (mid-fourties perhaps?) who is actually a friend of her father's. And...I'm going to treat it as a positive thing. (for the most part.) What do ya'll think? Do you think this is too out there? I can't come up with a reason for why the marriage would be morally objectionable. And I feel it's a lot different from most stories where girls are horrified at the suite. But it also seems kind of weird to me. lol. any thoughts? Well, it's really a matter of culture. One of the reasons we perceive that sort of thing negatively is because it's usual some rich dude marrying a trophy wife. But, in the old days, people married for practicality. It often filled their needs to marry an older person. One thing I will say is that an older man marrying a younger woman is okay, but something strikes me wrong if a 50 year old woman marries a 20 year old man. The discrepancy between the person with maturity and the person with leadership isn't going to work. There's a line from Twelfth Night (What You Will) where the Duke advises Viola that men should marry woman younger than themselves, since a mans desires are more fickle and woman make good care takers. (That's a bit...self centered.)

Author:	Celearas [ October 11th, 2010, 10:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Large age gaps in marriages in medieval times were normal. Often, marriage were arranged between lord and lord, and women were given either as peace offerings between two former enemies, or because of land. Therefore, the man would often be about the same age as the girl's father, and the girl would often be quite young, so she would have a long time to be wife-y and have babies, and, it is my belief, so she wouldn't have the time to be independent and gain that ability to think on her own and possibly object. Would be so inconvenient. As for objections, arranged marriages the norm. Yes, depending on what era there was courtly love, but often that took the form of affairs. Also, if the man was decently kind, had all his teeth, and was well off, she'd be pretty happy. Divorces were rare, because the church was so against them, so she'd pretty much have to spend her entire life with this man, therefore she'd want to do what she could to make it work, and the man, too. Often, however, women were stuck in lonely marriages, because the man was always out fighting or at a lord's house. That's when courtly love happened. Many young, handsome knights eager to try out their skill at writing poetry, a young woman lonely, maybe still harboring dreams of love (especially if she grew up in a court where courtly love thrived), yeah. Not that difficult to see. As for women being older than men, Eleanor of Aquitaine was about 30 when she married the then 18-year-old king of England. Granted, he was her second husband, but it seems that they had an at least tolerable marriage, and she was at pretty happy. She ended up making such a wonderful court, with all kinds of great thinkers. Hard to do if you're completely miserable. And as they had four sons, at least they could stand the sight of each other! But often, the woman wouldn't be older than the man, unless she was a widow with so much land men didn't care about her age, because women were so often gifts from their fathers or lords and given at a young age. Also, they needed to have babies, and at 30 or 40 the ability to do that is lessened. Hope that helps!

Author:	Rachel Newhouse [ October 11th, 2010, 10:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I haven't any educated opinion on the morality of it, but something did occur to me - Elise Dinsmore married Edward, who was her father's peer. I don't know the extent of the age gap, but I do remember her father initially having qualms about the age difference. Just a thought for comparison.

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 11th, 2010, 10:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
LOL! I remember that, Philli. That's when I stopped reading those books, I was so disgusted with her choice of husband... (although I probably should not have been. ) And YIKES! Celearas! That sounds a lot more... well..."negative" than I'd been thinking at first. I'd never thought of it as that bad. Just... less than optimal maybe? But that actually sounds pretty miserable. Hmmmm...

Author:	Celearas [ October 11th, 2010, 11:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Really? Which part? I was trying to say that it could be pretty happy if both parties were willing to work at it, that the woman had a sort of independence through marriage that made her able to have friends, work to make her court thrive, all that stuff. Arranged marriages still have lots of the same problem marriages based on "love" (I put it in quotes because sometimes they're not) do. People change, and sometimes are found in a situation where they're not married to the same person they married, and have to work and adapt. Sometimes arranged marriages were wonderful, and some even ended in love, sometimes marriages based on love turn out wonderfully, sometimes either turn out miserably. 'Tis a fact of life. The only real difference in the practice is that perhaps in arranged marriages people were more willing to work hard, because divorce wasn't an option, and you are with that person until you or he/she dies.

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 11th, 2010, 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
ah. Ok, I think I understand a little better. Thanks. That's more what I'm going for in my story actually. Oh...one more thing I wanted to ask about... At first this character is a lot more attracted to this guy's son. He's not her husband, but they have more in common, he's her age, and she likes him better. Emotionally, she isn't being at all faithful to her husband. do you think I need to handle that delicately, or just not really bother touching on it in my story?

Author:	Rachel Newhouse [ October 11th, 2010, 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I am fairly touchy about "romance" in books, but I will say that mental/emtional purity and faithfulness is an excellent, worthy, much-needed topic to tackle, if you feel God is leading you to cover it. Many of us need to hear it, whether we realize it or not! Quote: Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Author:	Celearas [ October 11th, 2010, 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I would say definitely, if you want to do it go for it. Historically, it happened. We know that. As for morally, just look at the Bible. People there were so, so messed up. (In church we're doing a sermon series on bible dysfunctional families ) No one in there is perfect, the lines they draw are just as shaky as that of non-Christians, and I personally love that. Something you have to keep in mind, however, are the real results an affair, even an emotional one, would have. There'd be guilt, yet still that desire to keep going, that grief that it'll never work out, maybe that horrible hope that something'll happen to the husband to enable the romance to work. I love it all! Fantasy is moving away from the unicorns and pretty fairies, and into this lovely, more darker version that deals with more of a depth of the human soul and mind than just the on-the-surface emotions. The great writers know how to handle darker things, and it can be phenomenal. It can also be whiny and horrible. But I always say, go you for going there. And to handle that with a Christian view could be great. Though you could go into preachy-ness. I'm actually writing an affair right now, and it's hard. Especially because the woman's husband is actually a pretty admirable man, so there's always a part of her that feels rotten when she's with her lover, yet, as often happens, that feeling gets less and less. It's really hard to write, but it's been so great. It's a great way to write an affair, not the modern day "Hehe, look what they're doing" but when an affair was actually serious, life-ruining if caught, when girls had it pounded into them at an early age that faithfulness was an essential, yet people were just as messed up, irrational, sinful as they are now. It's awesome. I think that rambled.

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 14th, 2010, 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Those are some good points, both of you. And I think I'm going to go ahead with it for my Nano this year! So thanks! One more thing. Which would you rather read about? Her father dying, and her marrying him out of necessity. Or her father ordering her to marry this guy, because he was losing his fortune and couldn't take care of her?

Author:	Elanhil [ October 14th, 2010, 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
The second one is less depressing, but the first one may be more interesting for a character conflict.

Author:	Andrew Amnon Mimetes [ October 15th, 2010, 12:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I don't know...the first one seems like it would be more commonly done in stories, but the second seems kind of, well, heartless on the part of the father. Would that be a big conflict in the book? eruheran

Author:	Celearas [ October 15th, 2010, 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I think both would work well, but with the second you could have more emotion. Remember Titanic? Rose's mom wanted her to marry that guy because they were loosing their money, Rose was torn between her own happiness and needing to help her family out, she didn't really want to marry him, there was selfishness on both Rose's and her mom's part, yeah. It was such a great mini-conflict, both internal and external and there was so much I felt from that. Of course, you could go the other way and have her hysterically crying and locked in a tower growing out her hair so her true love could save her in all kinds of melodramatic super-drama that is an absolute terror to read. The second could work too. I picture something like in Princess Bride (post Westley "death"), where Buttercup's just going through the motions and not really feeling anything. That could also work well for the guy's son plotline; he makes her feel again, smile again. All kinds of lovely romance there! It would also help you out to make that romance more realistic and "healthy", because shows she's doesn't like him just because he's good looking or funny, but because she actually enjoys his company and he actually cares about her well-being. Depending on what kind of character she is and the tone you want this romance to have, of course.

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 18th, 2010, 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
eeeeeehehehehe! lovely plot bunnies pop up in Willow's head ok. Here is my idea for the basic plot. This is my nano, btw. how does it sound? Heroine's mother is dead, and the relationship with her father has never been very good. He manages to lose all the family money, and informs her that he is leaving to try and rebuild his fortune. While he is gone she has to marry one of his friends who has the resources to take care of her. She has a major panic attack, and is really angry, but eventually just gives up and marries the guy. She's miserable, apathetic, etc...until...ENTER HIS SON she meets Sir Charming. He's adorable, and funny, and he seems to like her, and he makes her feel like really good. Unfortunately, unbeknownst to her, she is the last of an elemental race that can control "Magic." Her husband's son knows this, and is thusly being nice to her so he can control magic through her.

Author:	Arias Mimetes [ October 18th, 2010, 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
I love it

Author:	Sarah Sawyer [ October 20th, 2010, 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Okay, I have a question regarding the current direction of the plot...several actually. 1) Does her husband know she can control magic? If so, why doesn't he tell her? If not, how does the son know what his father doesn't? It might be interesting if both the father and son know...so there's added conflict between them. 2) Does she feel any guilt over carrying on what amounts to an emotional affair with her husband's son? I'd hope so, or I might find it hard to sympathize with her (despite the difficulty of her circumstances). 3) Why does her father's friend marry her? In some of the earlier iterations of this plot, it sounded like he wasn't really interested in her either (they were both "resigned"). So if he wasn't interested in a wife, why didn't he just offer her some help until her father's return? I'd like to see him have a compelling desire, perhaps something that ties into the central conflict. I hope you don't mind all the questions...they came to mind only because I found your concept interesting. Hopefully this gives you some food for thought!

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 20th, 2010, 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Wow! Thanks so much for your questions! 1) Does her husband know she can control magic? If so, why doesn't he tell her? If not, how does the son know what his father doesn't? It might be interesting if both the father and son know...so there's added conflict between them. Originally, no one was going to know. She doesn't know herself, so I'm not sure how her husband would know. I was going to have his son be fairly well versed in ancient lore, all things magic. The power draws him, etc... and then when odd things start happening around her, he puts two and two together and figures it out. It's still undecided as to whether he's her husband's biological son, or just like an apprentice, or being mentored or something. 2) Does she feel any guilt over carrying on what amounts to an emotional affair with her husband's son? I'd hope so, or I might find it hard to sympathize with her (despite the difficulty of her circumstances). Oooh, yes, she does. She's terribly guilty half the time, and furious with the son the other half. But she manages to forget about that for various stretches of time. 3) Why does her father's friend marry her? In some of the earlier iterations of this plot, it sounded like he wasn't really interested in her either (they were both "resigned"). So if he wasn't interested in a wife, why didn't he just offer her some help until her father's return? I'd like to see him have a compelling desire, perhaps something that ties into the central conflict. Two reasons I was thinking. Her father wants her to marry him because it makes him feel like he's "giving" the guy something in return for taking care of her. and I was thinking about there being some law as well.

Author:	Sarah Sawyer [ October 28th, 2010, 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Willow, I like how this is developing! From my perspective, if you want the "son" to appear more evil, then you might have him be the biological son. Because having a actual son betray his father by pursuing his father's wife seems worse than just an apprentice doing so, though either one paints the "son" in a negative light. I'm glad she wrestles with her wayward emotions. Thanks for the added explanations about the marriage. I can certainly see why the father would want to marry off his daughter. I'm still wondering why the father's friend wants to marry the daughter? Has he always admired her? Is there something about her that draws him? Does he somehow feel responsible for her? I think his rationale could shape your plot in very different ways. I'm sure you already know the answers to these questions, but I'm curious now. And even if you didn't bring the official law into it, you could bring the unspoken moral code of society (i.e. she would be shunned or thought ill of if an unmarried man was supporting her in her father's absence). That in and of itself would help box her into a situation with no good way out. Anyway, I really like where you're going with this! Did you say it was your NaNo project this year?

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ October 28th, 2010, 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Ok. Once again, thanks for all questions. It helps me think things through. I'm going to have this son of his be adopted. Husband is actually his uncle. But the son's mother died, and so Lord Tane adopted him. I'm still wondering why the father's friend wants to marry the daughter? Has he always admired her? Is there something about her that draws him? Does he somehow feel responsible for her? He's not that thrilled about marrying again. He's never seen Nessa (who is the girl) He lost his wife about ten years ago in childbirth. (both mother and baby died) And he's not interested in another wife. But he owes Nessa's Father a favor, and by societal norms that means marrying and taking care of her. Plus, she is of a higher rank than he is, despite loss of fortune, so it's beneficial that way.

Author:	Sarah Sawyer [ November 4th, 2010, 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
It all sounds good! It's fun to see a story getting fleshed out. I love the brainstorming and watching different elements fall into place. I hope you'll keep us updated on your progress!

Author:	Willow Wenial Mimetes [ November 4th, 2010, 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Actually, I've started writing this story over at The Forge if you're interested in checking it out. It's under "Prologue: Updated" Thanks for your help!:D

Author:	Sarah Sawyer [ December 5th, 2010, 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
It's been way too long since I've gotten a chance to stop by here, but I'm certainly interested. I'll stop by the Forge and check it out.

Author:	Elly [ December 20th, 2010, 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Age Gaps
Elsie Dinsmore married Edward, who was her father's age. (Read about it in the series by Martha Finley.)

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