Truth is truth, and must be written whether you or non-Christians like it or not. I'm not referring to "Calvinism" here, just truth in general. If you believe it's true, don't fear eye-rolling or disagreements.

Just had to throw that out there.

That's right.

And since I don't believe it's truth, I'm not surprised at the eye-rollers.

The only problem here is that "completely true" is actually pretty vague. Ask different Christians what it means, you'll get different answers. The bible says of itself, "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. " (2 Tim 3:16-17)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say this, but taking it at face value, I don't think that's a sane position to hold. Suppose I told you that, as a disciple of Christ, you should love your father and mother.
But wait!
"25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:25)
Apparently I'm dead wrong!

So, to make the Bible useful for teaching, rebuking, etc., I think it's pretty clear that you need to interpret individual verses in their larger contexts. So sometimes, a statement may appear to disagree with an individual verse, but actually be quite in line with the larger message.


But I do agree with you about God not having a plan B. God's omni-temporal omniscience means to me that--whether or not we have free will--God knows ahead of time what we will choose, and has already worked those choices into his plan.

Exactly.

I know! It's pretty scary...I'm not yet sure how I will work this, but probably similar to how it happened to Saul...I don't know yet.




So of course I'm not going to have everyone that ever gets saved have God appear to them and blind them (or something) to prove who he is.



Yeah, good advice, thank you.



A lot of help, in my opinion. (I know we disagree on this point, and that's ok)



Thank you for the encouragement, Lady Amaris! That is something I have struggled with before (I naturally want to please everyone, but with God's help, I will be content to please him, even if it means only him), and is something I need to keep in mind.



A lot of people roll their eyes at Truth, Christians and non. So no matter what I write, you shouldn't be surprised.

Good thoughts, Cephron! Taking scripture out of context is something I'm afraid of doing...Professor Horner's bible reading plan has me reading 10 chapters of scripture a day (whenever I man up and do it ), so I'm hoping to get a general knowledge of the Bible to hopefully decrease the chances of this happening.

Yes, it's okay. All I will do is say this: Romans 1:18-20, and Romans 5:18.

(I may have other verses but I can't think of them at the moment.)

Oh, and I wish to point out that what Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil...notice the word 'good'...it wasn't the Tree of Evil.

*shoves foot in mouth before another book on man's sin nature, good nature, and free will suddenly appears*

Uh...sounds like we're all in agreement there.



I have to do that too, sometimes.

Um....How do I begin? This topic has so many different views about it.... *laughs*

I myself am a Calvinist, my brother, Josiah, already covered what he thinks on the topic, and I agree with him. I believe that God doesn't change His plan because someone sinned. If He did, His plan is pointless, isn't it? Because if He kept changing His plan based on our sinful actions, His plan would never fulfill its purpose because it would never stop changing because no matter what we do, we are going to keep sinning no matter how hard we try. We are His creation, not the other way around. I believe God is sovereign and we are, in no way whatsoever, sovereign. At all. Period.

For example: A Father is trying to get His child to eat her vegetables but they say they won't unless they get to eat cake first. If the Father agrees because the child might eat her vegetables after she gets the cake than He is spoiling the child and if they continue in this way, look what happens! The Father's authority over the child is reversed.

If we can manipulate God's plan that He made for the world from the beginning of time, than what is the purpose of His plan if we can change it whenever we want by simply sinning?...

So yes, I believe God is sovereign.

That's just what I think, it is my honest opinion that won't change unless someone gives very clear Biblical evidence that God made us sovereign over Him, which I think might be hard to find...

Runningwolf, I think how you could do that is have your character know that God wants him to do x because it's part of His plan, and so the character does do that.

I think though while you do that you need to make sure that your writing is clearly portraying God's sovereignty over us and the gospel.

Hope that helped!

God bless,
Bethany

Thank you, that is helpful! I like your solution, and I think that's probably what I'll do, at least in some cases (it'll probably be different for every character).

Yes, that is what I'm very hopeful to do, portray God's power and his awesome mystery, salvation!

*sits up straight and fixes collar*

I agree. (sort of) This is something (this side of heaven anyway) we will never understand.
*backs out of conversation*

I am not trying to understand completely...I have my doubts about us understanding on either side of heaven, because we will never have infinite knowledge.

I have said this before, I am simply trying to do my best to get a grasp of how to portray the Gospel and Salvation. "Preaching" is not something you're going to do in a novel if you want it published anyway...not in a recognizable way, anyways...portraying something in a foreign environment helps readers see it for what it is from a new perspective, and things they didn't notice before will likely pop up...(the Chronicles of Narnia are an awesome example of this, as are the LoTR) that is what I want to do, and I want to avoid preaching.... it's a variation of show, don't tell.

I don't agree, but I'm sure you knew I as going to say that.



I don't believe God has a plan B. God is all knowing, and therefore He knows the mistakes we make before we make them. He also knows what the consequences will be, what will happen after that and so on. He doesn't make us make mistakes, or make us sin, or make up the consequences of our mistakes. God knows everything, that doesn't mean He makes us do what we do. Because then you have the problem of Him making people sin, you see.


Salvation is something that is so simple that you have to be as a child to understand it. It's not a complicated, hard to understand plan. It is so simple, and personally I believe that's how it should be portrayed in our writing. If you have to be as a child to understand the gospel, then it should be simplicity itself.

P.S I hope that didn't come across as offensive. It wasn't intended if it did.

I know...that's why it's going to be so hard to write about.

*Can't help laughing*

By the way, Wolf, you have started some interesting topics for us here, you know.

First, no one has actually argued that God changes His plan, as such. I think everyone here agrees that He knows what's going to happen beforehand. But that's not the same as saying that what happens is always what God would prefer happened. While I suppose it's possible that everything that happens is, in fact, for the absolute best, it doesn't seem likely to me. And when Paul talks about everything working together for good, he doesn't say anything about the best, only for good. It doesn't rule out everything being for the best, but I'd think he'd say that if it were the case. And I don't know of anything that indicates that everything does, in fact, work out for the best.

Second, what about prayer? If we cannot influence God's plan, then prayer is, in fact, pointless. You could, I suppose, argue that it's for building up faith, but I don't think it would be very effective (for me, at least) if you also believe that it doesn't do anything.

Third, I would argue that we do, in fact, have a certain amount of sovereignty, of sorts. Not over God; any influence we have over Him (if any) is only as the result of love, and isn't sovereignty. But we do, I think, have a certain amount of sovereignty over the earth. Over the created world. Remember, God put Adam and Eve in charge of the earth, and I believe when He's creating them, He talks about creating man to rule the earth. I'm also inclined to think that this is also at least part of why creation is 'groaning under the curse of sin': because we do have authority over it, and so when Adam and Eve fell, everything they ruled also fell.

Fourth, (okay, maybe I should just do these as one after another things at this point, but I already started numbering them, so I'll just stick with it...) what you have in your example is, I think, not really related to anything anyone has been talking about. I don't believe humans can deliberately mess with God's plan, and I don't think anyone else here does, either. (If anything, you might be helping it along, like the Pharisees having Jesus crucified.) I think a more appropriate use of your example would be like this:
The father's plan is to feed his daughter vegetables, and then after that, give her the cake. She refuses, however, to eat all of her vegetables, and so the father doesn't give her any cake. She doesn't have any sovereignty over him, but his plan is changed.

Finally, God's sovereignty does not require Him to dictate every move we make. In fact, He could have absolute sovereignty even if He didn't do anything; He just wouldn't be using it. I believe God is absolutely sovereign. I also believe that out of His love, He granted Adam and Eve, and through them, all of us, free will. Exactly what state this free will has been in since the Fall, I'm not sure.

*laughs at Aleena *

*is haggard* *smiles weakly* Thanks, I try...but I think I'm going to need a break after this one!




Not everything makes sense to us. Why did Jesus himself pray that "this cup" would pass from him? Do you think he really thought what he said would change his father's plans?
If you could, Arien, I would appreciate it if you would PM the person you want to challenge, instead of doing it here, I'm done debating on this thread because it clutters it up. I know I started out doing it too, but I now think it'd be better to do it by PM next time you feel like challenging what someone said. Thanks.

To clarify, now what I'm looking for is how individual people will/have approached this issue (God's sovereignty in your story and over your characters, or the lack of it), feel free to give example scenarios as well if any come to mind. I'm not saying I don't want your opinion, I just don't want all of it (like in a monster post about why you are not a Calvinist or whatever, instead just give me an example of how you would approach this issue in your own writing. I hope this makes sense and is within bounds of what I'm allowed to say to "moderate" my own thread.

True. Although your particular example I think makes plenty of sense, for a variety of reasons. But I won't go into that here, like you asked. So if anyone wants to talk more about any of the things I've said here, feel free to PM me, so we don't clutter up the thread.

*pokes nose in* I... did swear off the theology forum at some point, didn't I?

Anyways. Anyone want to know the Jewish answer to free will vs. predestination? I don't have time to debate (which is why I try to avoid the theology forum) but I think a few of you would be interested in knowing.

[Note: Before anyone asks, I'm not Jewish, but I follow Judaism. And before anyone asks the next question, yes, my denomination believes Jesus is the Messiah!]

Interesting, I'm not interested in debating anymore here either, so you don't need to be afraid of me (like anyone would be anyway), but I'd be happy to hear how you'll approach this issue in your writing just to hear another perspective of it.

*grins* Oh, I have a very solid opinion. I'm now trying to think whether I have anything meaningful to add to the discussion of handling it in books. I am percolating a few thoughts, and may be back with them.

Cool, if you do, I'll be glad to see them!

*Laughs* I'm starting to think I should do that...

Yay, I get to share. *rubs hands together gleefully* Meant to get back to this earlier. I'd don't have as much time for HWFF as I'd like. (I'd like to spend hours and hours and hours...)

I'm going to pull back to something very, very basic: God made everything and exists beyond His creation. In other words, He is not confined to it. However, so rarely do we think about what that truly means.

God made light, and the physical laws and mathematics to form it and the rest of his creation. He made space and the dimensions. He made time. He made "cause-and-effect." God is beyond and not confined to any of that.

What else did God make? Flashback to catechism instruction. "God made all things" is chorusing in my head.

He made us, and our minds, but He also made the concepts we could wrap our little human minds around. Just, righteous, merciful, majestic, and so many, many other things, the concepts we could use to describe Him. But He is beyond all that. He's so big, so incomprehensible. God is INCREDIBLE. These are only things that are the closest to what is the truth, concepts we can understand, in our limited human capabilities.

Earlier I said "God exists beyond His creation," yet that isn't really true, because "exist" and "beyond" are only the closest we have to describe what we have no words for or understanding of. God created "existing" and the concept of "beyond." They suffice, for us, because we are human with a human understanding.

Do you see where this goes? The question of God "knowing" and "planning" and "allowing" becomes ridiculous, because those concepts and the argument are too small for God. He isn't confined by the "cause-and-effect" that we are, because He created that. We've run out of understanding and are grappling, trying to resolve a bigness we sense within our understanding, and it just doesn't work! We can't limit God by what He created for us to understand!

How do I handle this in fiction? God is simply bigger, mind-blowingly bigger. (Which, by the way, doesn't even describe Him because He created our understanding of "bigger." And "mind-blowing.)

Wow, Kathrine, thanks for posting. I have thought of that before (though, like you said, not very often. My excuse is my value of mental health, but...some would argue I don't have that either).
The only thing is that what the Bible says is true, though we cannot always make sense from it, we can trust it, and my interpretation of it is going to be what I believe...that isn't to say that I believe my interpretation is flawless, but I have nothing better; which is why I need to ask God's help whenever I open the Bible.

I also know that God cannot even be confined to any theological theory or belief or anything, but I do believe these are worthwhile tools that God can use to guide us in our spiritual journeys.

This concept has helped me come to terms with what I believe. See, the important thing to remember, throughout all discussions on free will, is that God is not a creature. God is not human. As we try to figure out what God is like, we should not be comparing His actions to the standard of a human. We should compare them with the standard of a God. God can do things we cannot, such as create a being that cannot mess up God's plan, and yet is still responsible for its actions.

Exactly.

Wow. *Hugs* Thank you Roid, I think we all needed that reminder. It's so silly for us to argue over what we cannot comprehend. God is so amazing. *Hugs again* Thank you.

God bless,
Bethany

As a Christian all my life I have felt or believed in free-will. That is the ability to choose for oneself. I believe that it is a fundamental facet of Christianity. For without free-will or the ability to choose Christ we cannot be saved as it seems clear to me that we are to CHOOSE Christ. Furthermore fate or predestination seem to contradict the very righteousness of our God. How would Yahweh be any different than the bitter gods of mythology if he has already predestined all of humanity to salvation or damnation. Without free-will which is necessary to produce choice including the choice of faith over doubt how can there be salvation? I for one chose Christianity because 1. It seems illogical for the universe to exist without a God. 2. Because of all the religious dogmas in the world Christianity seemed the most sane. Why is this? I believed that only a religion that first admitted that it could be wrong (Which is done by acceptance of Christ through FAITH) and second had a God willing to allow mankind its own way (free will), would ever posses a God worthy of worship. It is our unique belief in free-will that proves the love of our God, for a god who simply dictates the events that unfold could never love his creation. Or at least that is my belief.

What are your view points on this subject?

Note: Though he is not here, Jay has in the past requested that we not really bring discussions of this sort onto the forum because of their inflammatory nature. But if the Council decides to let it fly, then so be it.

Didn't Wolf start a thread awhile back that was on this topic?

Probably somewhere... * cough *

Sowwy. * meek * I'll go dig around and see if I turn it up. * trots off *

This would be it. It's not got the same name, but the two topics overlap so much that they are practically the same, I think.

Hey, Dawnbringer! Although I've debated this issue too many times to want to get into a large discussion again on this, I just wanted to defend Calvinist belief against this attack:



If I may start off with my favorite analogy (and one that works perfectly for a group of writers ), I would compare this to an author writing a book. An author can have full control of his book, and yet love his characters. I've experienced such feelings, and although the feelings are diluted by the fact that the characters aren't real, perhaps we can get an inkling of what kind of love God hath toward us. Even though the author dictates all the events, he can still love his creation.

As for how Yahweh is different than the bitter gods of mythology, my impression is that the difference is one of character, not interference. I've researched Greek mythology the most, but I didn't like the gods purely because they lived and ruled by their base instincts and by their sinful cravings, not because they interfered in the affairs of men. So that's where I think the Christian god is different from the Greek gods.

And there's my thoughts on this issue. Like I said above, I'm more interested in defending the possibility of Calvinistic belief being right. Not to convince you of it, but just to see if we could come to an agreement that a God that predestinates the world wouldn't necessarily be a bad God. Let me know your thoughts on this.

Sorry if I hit on a taboo subject.

Dawn was not bringing this up as an attack against Calvinism, he was just asking for other view points. Just wanted to point that out. *Smiles*


Also let's be very careful we keep this as a discussion and not let it go into a debate.



Not at all, Dawn. It just means that we have to be careful to keep it at discussion, not debating and keep it very civil. Unfortunately these sorts of conversations can be heated, but I am sure we can each of us comment with grace, respecting each others' beliefs and feelings, and just discussing not debating. You mustn't feel bad for bringing it up!

Of course, I'll merge it now.


There we go!

Hopefully some of the past replies will help you as well, Dawn, if you glean through some of the different opinions discussed.

Sorry I didn't mean for my post to be an attack on Calvinism or anything. Actually my train of thought had stemmed from an argument with a Baptist. I was just wondering how Christians who believe in predestination come to this conclusion. The reason Christianity appeals to me in the first place is that we have an absolute and all powerful God (The only LOGICAL explanation I've heard so far for the universe's creation, Even most pantheistic beliefs have some obscure point referring to an all powerful deity creating the universe) who despite having absolute sovereignty allows us to make our own way like any good father would allow his sons (and daughters) to walk their own path. Perhaps I was wrong in saying a God who predestines everything couldn't love his creation. Certainly an over-controlling parent still loves their child (Not saying the Calvinistic view of God is an over-controlling parent!) Actually that's usually why they are so over-controlling in the first place. As an author I often allow my stories to go their own direction I never force the story, I try to allow the nature of each character to determine the story. I have even had a character I had conceived as a villain turn into an anti-hero! I have always believed a good parent/author allows their children/characters to develop in a natural way and (In the case of children) Find their own way in life. (Not to say anything against those who believe otherwise, this is simply my belief) I extend this belief to God whom I believe is the source of this truth (Gods way determines right and wrong in my viewpoint) So by extension if something is right and natural it must be God's way as God is good and therefor being good cannot or more accurately WILL not act against what he has determined is right. In other words I believe God is all powerful but due to his benevolence allows us to act according to or own will. This I believe is the ultimate proof of his benevolence while in the case of a Fate God It seems a little greyer as that would mean he has predetermined all evil as well as all good. While this God could I suppose love his creation he seems more indifferent or down right malevolent toward it. In my belief God is no less powerful or sovereign in fact he has all the power necessary to be a "Fate God" but chooses not to use that power because he is just that benevolent as to allow us as a people to become what we will and make our own way. That's my belief, and I just can't find myself believing in a God who would force himself upon us all. I have read the Bible front to back several times over and can find nothing that contradicts this. But that's just what I believe.

As far as whether I could ever believe a God who predestines the events of the universe was righteous, I don't know. As I said before, my belief in God's benevolence comes from the fact that I don't believe he does just that. However a God who predestines the Soul at birth because he knows its nature and the events that would transpire because of its actions (After all he is ALL-KNOWING) I might be able to get behind. Furthermore there is the benevolence of antagonism (The belief I hold that sometimes God causes things we humans misconstrue as bad in order to foster personal growth and strength within his creations) But that still relies quite heavily on my viewpoint of a "Stand tall and face the sun God" which furthermore relies quite heavily on the fact that we have free will. I would also like to mention again that in my viewpoint of God he does in fact hold the power to predestine events he simply does not (With some important exceptions) because he is righteous. Again that's what I believe and I'm sure you have your own reasons for believing otherwise.

Sorry that was just a bit long.

Problem with analogy: Characters can't love their author.

Anti-Calvinist point proven.

Yeah. God does not have to control everything in order to be sovereign. As I keep saying over and over and over again...sovereign simply means "being the greatest power." It's passive and implies no action, only the potential for action. Stop twisting the word to mean something else.

Similar story with predestine. It's almost a passive verb, meaning to decide something beforehand. It describes something that happens in the mind of God, and does not say that he controls things based on what he decided.

It is interesting to note that in every instance of the word predestination, the passage is talking about believers specifically and says they are predestined to eternal life, or to be conformed to the image of God's son. Which is pretty clear to me...God decided beforehand that anyone who believes in Jesus will be sanctified and have eternal life. That's predestination to the full extent of the word's definition.

*is sucked back into his old thread*



God is not as limited as parents or authors are. I don't believe He left any detail of our makeup (physical, spiritual, mental--personality, height, etc.) to chance.


It seems to me that the following verse does not fit with your statement...

That quote merely states the predestination of Christ's sacrifice. Those people were not forced to do what they did if it had not been them it could have been any other. They are referring to Christ dying for our sake as predestined not anything else. Or at least that's how it reads to me.

Yes, I am what you might categorize as a Calvinist (even though I am a Baptist and Calvin was not, etc...)

God's ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. He is entirely other. So imagining how God would feel by comparing it to how we would feel is insufficient. We have to base our view of God on the Bible and on biblically based logic.

Here's my discussion insert: if God is letting us choose, doesn't that mean He does not know what we're going to choose? And if He does not, doesn't that make us more powerful than God?

No, that's the difference you see. God knows everything. He knows when we are going to be brought into this world, He knows when we'll die. He also knows every choice we will make. But He doesn't make us make those choices. Being all knowing is different from making the things that happen to people happen. If that makes sense. God can know what we are going to choose, without forcing us to choose that path. That's why so many of us make mistakes and sin etc; God isn't forcing us to make those mistakes or forcing us to sin, we are the ones making the wrong choices.

I agree that He isn't 'making' us sin, as in forcing our hand one direction or the other (any more than He will force a leaf to fall to the ground from the tree--but He did cause it all to happen by setting it in motion from the beginning, not leaving anything to chance [no pun intended ]). So it is with our sin--there is gravity for the leaf, and depravity/a sin nature for us (1 Corinthians 15:21-23).
At the same time, He doesn't step back and call us to Him like we are His pets when we are still dead in our sins--because we aren't going to recognize Him as our shepherd when we aren't His sheep. We can't respond when we are dead to Him.
The analogy is that we were dead in sin/slaves to sin.

Nowhere in the above passage is there any mention of us choosing Him. It is incredible, yet simple--we were dead in sin--by nature doing what displeases God. The next thing that happens is He raises us up from the dead. It is an incredible showing of His grace to us, hateful beings in rebellion to Him. There is no middle phase, where we are half alive and God lets us decide whether to live or die, or where God says 'please?' If anyone has scripture that says or implies otherwise, please do mention it.



We couldn't get out by ourselves any more than a dead man can come alive by himself, or a slave in shackles and chains can escape without help.
It would be absurd to think Christ would beckon to a multitude of dead men in hopes that they would jump up and follow Him, would it not? Or how about someone in chains. Would He urge them to come and follow, without doing anything to help them escape their bonds?
And I don't think the idea that God resurrects us and then steps back to see where we will go has any scriptural support, either. There is no neutral, we are either for Him or against Him (Matthew 12:30).
Annnd....if we're against Him, why would we ever choose Him? The change occurs before we choose Him--we are not forced to choose Him (like, kicking and screaming our way to Heaven), but once He opens our eyes, we will have nothing else!

...sorry for such a massive post. *weak grin* I'm tired now...hope this is coherent and edifying for all involved in this discussion.

I sincerely agree that God doesn't force anyone to sin - man is depraved, they want to sin anyway, it would be redundant for God to make them sin when they already want to sin. God may have an intention for their sin, to work good from their evil, but "forcing" someone to sin is not how He works.

When God used the Assyrians against Israel, they were referred to as "The rod of my anger" (Isaiah 10:5) that, along with the rest of the chapter explain that God was going to cause the Assyrians to come against Israel to punish Israel for their sin. An evidence of God's active influence in this situation is illustrated by this verse:

"Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him, to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets." (Isaiah 10:6 ESV)

However, also, later in the same chapter, God says this:

"When the Lord has finished all his work in Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes." (Isaiah 10:12)

God accounts the actions of the Assyrian king as sinful, and his motives as sinful, yet He is the one who caused him to go against Israel. The king of Assyria already was depraved in heart and wished to destroy and plunder, God was not forcing him to do this, but He directed Him toward Israel, and also held him accountable for his wicked actions.

Just the same, God has a purpose in everything in this world, He created it, He sustains it, and He governs it. Any sin perpetrated has a purpose for happening, but it is not God forcing a man to sin, it's is man's radical depravity causing him to do so. There is none that seeks after God, and there's none that does good--no, not one.

I think a good way to approach this angle of God's sovereignty in writing, is to take a terrible action perpetrated by men, introduce the character against which this action was against, and introduce a Christian, who can counsel, help and encourage that person, and ultimately show the good that came out of that action. But, if that's not what you're writing, I understand.

Since the nature of this thread is not geared toward debate, I thought it might be interesting to bring something up, if you'll humor me.

If you are reading these posts and would maybe like to explore the subject deeper, then I can recommend a good debate of James White v. Michael Brown. These two men are good friends, excellent scholars and honest, clear debaters, with respect for each other's position, and accurately representing (something we can all learn) the opposite position. You can find that on YouTube.

Just a suggestion since topics like this can really stir interest.