I do see what you guys are saying, but my opinion lies with what Captain, Cephron, and Vanya said.

I would totally agree that it also depends on the age you're writing for.

I should add, if someone doesn't feel right including swearing in scenes like this (where the swearing holds significance for what's going on in the story), they shouldn't be writing those scenes in the first place.

This is one of the fundemental problems with Christian fiction, and one reason it has a bad name now. People act like they want to deal with 'risky' topics but then dance around them, and the story loses a lot of meaning. If you're going to write about such things, be willing to really write about them.

If not, write something else.

I don't think I agree with that, Luke. Just because someone decides to handle a subject one way (through being explicit maybe), that doesn't mean someone else can't handle the subject well in a completely different way, and produce a brilliant novel. In my opinion. A good novel doesn't have to include swearing, and explicit things. If someone is convicted and decides not to use swearing etc in their writing, God will surely bless that, and use it to His glory. You can still handle a subject well, without including all the explicit details, I think anyway.

That's not what I said...

If you are trying to write a story about, say, the evils of swearing, it will not work without using swearing. So don't try.

I'm talking about very specific themes here. If you're not willing to shock readers with the reality of sex trafficking, please don't write about it in the first place. That doesn't mean you get really explicit. I wrote an entire novel with themes including sex trafficking, swearing, rape, and more...and it's far less explicit than a typical secular thriller.

They're serious subjects and I don't want to see them dealt with lightly because someone's afraid of 'offending' people.

Aaah, ok. Sorry I misunderstood; yes that makes sense.

I agree.


Yes, since after all, if Christians are afraid of offending people, they shouldn't write about their faith, either. The issue that arises is not whether writing about something offends people, but whether the way we are writing about something is harmful for the author and for readers. The author and readers answer to God and His Biblical guidelines, and if God is not offended and Biblical guidelines are not disregarded, then the author and readers need not worry about the offense of others.

Your faith should be one of those serious subjects that you don't deal with lightly.

*Chuckles* Do you know, I can't say how much I have been enjoying watching this discussion. It's been amazing to watch everyone expressing their thoughts on the subject.

Exactly.

I'm going to partially agree with Luke and expound a little bit. There are times when not writing out the swear word can sound cheap, forced, and flat because of the way the scene is constructed. It all depends on the writer's focus with the scene.

To better explain, I'm going to give you an example from my writing. Recently I was working on a scene in Peter's Ransom (third book of Peter's Angel) where swearing is part of a pivotal plot point. A family has just been branded as traitors and had their estate ransacked, and it's the daughter's fault. Her father makes it very clear what he thinks of her by swearing at her. It would be natural for a man like him to swear at such a situation; by swearing at her, he makes his feelings for her very clear without needing to have melodramatic dialog.

When I originally wrote the scene, I had an idea of what swear word he might use. That's unusual for me, and I wasn't happy about it. I did not want to list the word, even though, from a literary perspective, it would have been "effective." So I just replaced it with a simple "He swore."

The resulting scene still made me uncomfortable. The whole scene was constructed around that word, around the reactions and implications of that specific word. It just wasn't listed. As such, not only was the scene too edgy for my tastes, but it sounded awkward. It sounded like I wanted to swear and just wasn't willing to. And that was poor writing.

So I reconstructed the section. I rewrote the paragraphs surrounding that moment and took the emphasis off of his choice of words. Instead of putting emphasis on what he said, the emphasis was just on the fact that he was swearing angrily at her. You don't know what he said (and it isn't strongly implied), and it doesn't matter. The emphasis is that he sees his daughter and just takes everything out on her. And because that's the emphasis, it feels perfectly natural not to list the swear words. It doesn't sound forced.

So yes, there are times when it sounds awkward to skirt around swearing in novels. But that is because of the way the scene is constructed. If the focus of the scene is in the right place, not listing the swear words will sound completely natural. If you're just redacting swear words out of the text with "he swore," you're really just censoring. The focus is different and therefore it will feel different to your readers.

Using "he swore" instead of the actual words works, but only if you do it with the right heart attitude. If you're just using "he swore" because you're unwilling to write the words, even though you're thinking them, then where is your heart? Where is your focus with this scene? Are you putting the emphasis in the wrong place? Are you pushing your own boundaries? Why?

Very well said, Aubrey. I completely agree.

That was a brilliant post, Philly. Thankyou for that. I can see where you're coming from and yes, I agree.

I think what I have concluded from this discussion is that, if you take the time to write exceptionally, swearing is unnecessary. However if you use swear words in an effective place, it could be seen as taking a shortcut.

That made a wonderful amount of sense, Philli. I've come to the same conclusions as my twinnie; thanks for posting that.

*still disagrees slightly but it's a very good point*

That is a very good point Phili! I agree.

Those sound like good books! Have you posted some parts of them on HW?

Thanks, everyone. I'm glad it was edifying.

As you may have noticed, I'm not going to argue whether or not one should write language. I have my own beliefs which I shall adhere to, but I don't feel led to debate about or defend them at this time.

What I am going to defend is this - if you're called by God not to write language in your books, stick to it. Train yourself to think and write that way. Your clean language will not inhibit the quality of your books. If you have a scene that feels like it's falling flat, it's not because of your clean language. It's because of your motives or the quality of your writing.

The "he swore" approach is a very valid technique. Like any writing technique, however, it must be used masterfully to be effective. If you use it randomly, or for the wrong reasons, it will fall flat.

However, that doesn't mean putting in the actual words is automatically going to make it well-written. It's absurd to think that smattering your book with language will instantly make your book more effective. Bad language won't save bad writing.

There is nothing inferior about the "he swore" literary approach. If you use it consistently and creatively, it can be extremely effective.

I used the "he swore" approach in my first novel, Red Rain, and I had absolutely no complaints about it. The adults and older teens didn't find the book to be too shallow (Mr. Luke here gave me four stars, which is high praise ), yet parents weren't afraid to give the book to their younger kids. It was effective, yet clean, and that's because the "he swore" was used well.

For me, it's a mentality. I have trained my mind not to think in swear words. As such, they are naturally nonexistent in my writing; I don't have to censor them out. I just never think to write them. I do, however, think to mention swearing in the narration. I know when it would be natural and effective for a character to swear; I know when I mention of swearing would fit the essence of a scene and promote my goals for the scene. As such, "he swore" phrases flow naturally into the narrative. They are effective because they are well-placed; they are smooth because I take the time to polish the expression. The exclusion of hard language has absolutely no detrimental effect on the quality, effectiveness, or intensity of my novels, because I have trained myself to write well with that technique. If someone tells me my book lacked because it didn't have language, it is either because I didn't write the book well or because the reader is looking for a different kind of entertainment than I offer. In the case of the latter, they are advised to read someone else's books.

So my point is this - if the "he swore" approach is falling flat, it means the book was not written well. Either the prose was not written masterfully, or the "he swore" approach was used for the wrong reasons. It's up to you to decide which. If you examine your motives and decide that you're writing a book that "needs" language to be effective, you'd better take that up with God and not me.

Adalina, I'll PM you about my book.

On CF.org we're having an interesting discussion about story mediums, and the inestimable Calix asked the following question:



The generally agreed upon answer runs thusly:



This applies to language as well. Certainly some stories are better told with actual words spelled out, and there are those that are better written without it! But name a single story to me that can't be reshaped and fitted to a different mold. Stories aren't absolutes; they are alive and they can change as we see fit. We are like gardeners; pruning them here and allowing them to grow there.

To build off of what Aubrey said; if you feel called not to write language in your book, don't let that stop you. She's absolutely right. And if you are comfortable with it, and think that's best for your story, then don't be inhibited by feelings of false righteousness. Consider your motives carefully, and if you find your story falling flat, it's the writing, not the content, that's at fault.

*applauds Katie*

I've been enjoying this, too, and having many private discussions over it.

Hah, yea me too! I was chatting to my sister about it yesterday.

I love your last post, Aubrey.

I liked it a lot, too.

*honored* I am very glad it was a blessing.

I always say "What the-" and then just stop. I've had people say that that's still swearing in an indirect way because my original intention intention was to swear. But... it *wasn't* my intention... so... is it considered swearing or not?

I like the Patrick McManus curse. In his comic short stories, sometimes he'll have characters say something like "What the bleep?" Hehe. Or, if someone's mad at somebody else, "You bleeping bleep of a bleep!"

Now this is an interesting question.

I just died of laughter. Yes, interesting indeed.

Too cheesy for me. XD

I always laugh at those parts!

Have you read McManus? I think he makes it work in context. His stories are ridiculous...but in the most hilariously awesome way.

I have had someone bleep me in person, so it's not quite cheesy.

You mean they made the chirping noise to cover your language, or they called you a bleep?

Lycanis. XD I don't think Airi would curse... though she'd gain even more respect from me if she had.

No, Matt, I haven't...

You must. I'm pretty sure you'd love his stories. Get A Fine and Pleasant Misery. Classic American humor right there.

I'll look it up. Thanks. I love book recommendations, and am always hunting good ones, even when I have a hundred or so waiting to be read. xD

Same here. Well, more like a thousand. I have a whole library's worth of books on my to-read list, and I OWN more than 120 novels I haven't read yet...

ANYWAY. Starting to get off topic here...

Yeah, same, and countless abandoned ones.

So... to answer Mist's intention, I don't think that's swearing on your part. It happens. Therefore it'll be in our books. We write truth, not a world full of perfect people. That's now where we live. It needs be be addressed. But we can show people to be as vile as they are in real life in a tasteful way that doesn't endanger us or our readers. Exactly how you said you went about this is how I would.

Really? Well, you never can tell...

Don't get my hopes up... XD

*laughs happily and wags her finger at Eli playfully *

No, Wolf, I do not curse. I am subjected to it often, due to ministry and other such things, but I myself do not.

Sorry, Eli, guess you shall have to admire me less.

No, a guy bleeped at me when he was very frustrated with me, but didn't want to full out cuss at me. It was a high stress moment, so at the time it wasn't funny (though I didn't really care that he bleeped me), but in hindsight... it's humorous, and I admire him for trying to be courteous, even under stress. He could have just swore at me, but he did not.

Well, I admire you more.

*chuckles * Well that one doesn't shock me, but thank you, Jonathan.

Well.

It's a tough one.

But she wouldn't be Airi if she cussed/cursed, would she? That would be admiring her as a very different person than who she is.

So I admire you more also. XD You are a real person, and that person is Airi.



And yeah, that guy sounds interesting... what were you talking about?

Hah, I admire you more, also!

That is funny...and good of him to not full-out cuss at you.

So, do y'all think that it would be appropriate to portray this type of cursing/cussing in a story if you are writing a similar character?

I was teasing you, Eli dear. And not to get off topic, but we were dealing with the topic of a poor choice he had made, especially with his past issues, and the consequences it could have. I was giving tough love.

I think the answer to that question has to be filtered through how you view the issue of language in a book in the first place, to be honest....

I still wouldn't use it, just because I've never heard it, so it sounds cheesy to my ears.

It'd depend on my writing, and then I might do it, though I would leave some of Mcmanus' other techniques alone, because he basically tells you what was said without saying it...as to having the "word" 'bleep' in my story, I think it's morally okay, so there may be a time I'd use it, but I don't see that happening.