Hi everybody,
I was wondering if anybody here had some tips on how to write action/fight scenes. I typically have a problem with describing the setting and what exactly is going on. Plus, adding provocative dialogue is difficult (and when I say provocative, I mean quite literally each character trying to provoke the other to anger). So does anybody have any hints for how to write a)sword fights or b)martial arts fights without getting complicated?

Another thing I wonder about is how detailed my descriptions should be when it comes to gory fights. I don't want it to sound like the battle is "pretty", but I don't want to be too detailed either. Any thoughts?

Well, I honestly don't have a problem with blood and gore, so I might not be much help on how decriptive you should be.

And when I have write out fights (or have I written one before....? Sad story, I can't even remember... Oh yeah, there was one with wolves or something), I just write whatever each character does. I try to "picture" the story as I write it (I don't actually visualize anything, but it's the same thing), and just write what I see. I can go back and edit later.

I am having issues with the provoking conversations as well. That is always kind of tough, because if you have in depth characters then each of them respond to something differently then another might. I haven't gotten to that point in any of my stories, but I'm getting there.

Like Arias said, it's probably a good idea to almost visualize the battle as you write it (without too much detail). In a battle scene in my book, I avoid describing the gory physical damage to characters whenever possible. Instead I focus on the senses of the character who's witnessing or taking part in the battle. (e.g. cries of agony, yelling, battle cries, vultures circling, the image of creatures falling, etc). At least that's how I describe my battles.

Hope this helps. There are probably other authors on here who can tell you about this better then I can, and maybe I went into a little too much detail.
Oh well. you get the point.

I won't be too much help with the fight scenes (I haven't exactly written any of the fight scenes in my book yet; I tend to skip them and say "Ill come back to this"). However, I have written some arguments. It is really difficult to have the two characters arguing and not sound like each other. What I've done (and you guys might already do this) is take arguments from the people that I know. And, when I have a guy involved in the argument, I tend to write out the fight, and then I cheat and ask my dad to help me make the guy actually sound like a guy.
Basically, I've found that stealing other people's arguments (the subjects and the actual words they use) is a big help to me. I hope that is some help to you.

I always have trouble making my guy characters actually sound like guys... which is exactly why I'll be having other people read over my story (and any I write later) and tell me what they think.

That is my number one issue as well, Sapphira. It's kind of tough for a girl. But it must be even harder the other way around; boys trying to write about girls without getting stereotypical.

Let's see if I get my reply in this time...I was typing one earlier and my computer went wacky on me.

I think authors are wise to consult readers of the opposite persuasion to make sure their characters read with believability. My husband is forever flagging my male characters for slipping into remarks that sound far too much like being in a snit. *sheepish grin*

Another point about dialogue and fight scenes, though: if the fight is already underway, it's more realistic to keep the chatter to a minimum. Only in movies do combatants quip between sword thrusts. Typically, they would be too consumed with either defeating their opponent or keeping themselves alive to come up with any pithy remarks. However, in my opinion, if the fight hasn't yet begun, then that's a good time for goading. A variation, I suppose, would be to have your fighters go at it for a bit, then break away from one another in exhaustion, where a few panted insults might sneak out. No speeches, though.

As for writing the scene, you as an author have to decide what kind of "rating" you want on your work. If it's for younger audiences, graphic details ought to stay at a minimum, or else conscientious parents won't let their kids read your work. Beyond that, the overarching question (which applies to every word you write) is: does it serve the story? Is there some artistic, plot or character development reason you want to include the exact wounds dealt and sustained?

For me, I feel like I need to visualize the battle from a bird's eye view, then go back and decide how much of what happens will actually be able to be perceived by my point of view character. In my current WIP, my protagonist is very inexperienced, and since the bad guys are mostly bent on her capture, she spends the battles grappling with enemies, while she can only fleetingly glance what else is going on with the more experienced warriors. (That gives me an out from writing gore.) I don't know what I'll do with book three of the series, though, because the main POV character will be an experienced warrior, so I'll have to decide how the combat will filter through his POV.

Alright, I'm pushing my luck with my computer here...so I'm going to post these thoughts. I hope they help.

Those are some really good thoughts, Beckyminor. Personally, I was having my brother proof read the parts of my story with my male character in them, but he is absolutely no help whatsoever as far as editing goes . . . I guess I have to find someone else. My dad isn't in for the fantasy thing and my other brothers are too young . . .

That was a good point with the war scenes; I was kind of wondering how to put it when I get to that part. I like the birds eye view thing. I think it also helps if you know what your battle is going to be like before you write it, like any certain events important to the story during the heat of battle and things like that.

Of course, I don't know much about this subject, so I could be getting over my head. Good luck Lady Riniel!

I don't really have a problem with blood and gore. I was raised on books with lots of battles in them (i.e. Lord of the Rings, G.A. Henty, and later Binding of the Blade etc...)

But I think that if you're trying to get into the mood of a fight, listening to really fast, minor music beforehand can really help to get you into the right mood.

Hmm...those don't have any blood and gore to speak of. I can write a story that will take the hair off your head if I wanted to. But I don't.

A hugely important aspect of writing good fight scenes is to not tell everything. That doesn't just apply to blood and gore either. There are a huge variety of aspects of every fight that can be focused on to the complete exclusion of all others, and still make a killer scene (pun intended). A mark of a poor writer is when there are too many details all over the place. Of course, another mark is not enough details. Don't let it be confusing.

Sweet, I want to read that if you ever write a story like that.

I will refrain from comment.

Er.... is that bad? XD

Eeeeeeeeeek! *runs away*

*peeks out timidly*
I wouldn't! I like my hair!!
I'm not a fan of gore. (obviously )

lol. those were the most violent books I could think of that I was raised on, although I can think of worse things I've read now. My point was that I've always read books with battles in them, so I'm not the most objective opinion.

That said, I agree. I'm not sure if you have all seen the movie Jaws, but what makes it so disturbing is that you do NOT see everything. It's left to the imagination, and often imaginary things are worse than the actual ones.

Jaw is disturbing? Huh, I thought it was funny. (The fish was SO fake)

But I do agree with your last sentence, Mindy. Some of the scariest things are the unknown, especially to those of us with overactive imaginations. I can watch bloody movies and sleep normally. But I've spent many sleepovers made terrifying by being spent in a large, dark, creaky basement (especially after telling ghost/demon possession stories), where we can't see anything and are scared stiff by what we THINK might be hiding in the dark.

lol! I know exactly what you're talking about Elestar.

Another example would be the Village I think. Or going to the dentist.

Hey everybody, thanks so much for replying to this. You've given me a lot of help, and I really appreciate it. I'm also sorry I took so long to pop up; I've been very busy and my computer is acting weird when it comes to being on this forum. So anyway, you've been a great help, and hopefully next time I try to write a fight scene it will go well.
Also, Sir Mimetes, a story like that would be amazing. I'm always trying to find a story that will actually scare me, but it seems that nobody can write anything scary...

I've personally never had this problem. A few months back for a talent show I had a 4-way argument with myself (my ghetto-voice, white-girl-voice, normal voice, and Stitch-voice all had it out with each other on stage. It was pretty epic). I've always been the one to imagine what a person's response would be to me and respond to that hypothetical response, so what I did was hardly different from that. All this to say that, when writing arguments where each is trying to call the other out, try to imagine listening to the argument as a third person and write accordingly.
I was going to say try to hear the characters' voices in your head, but that sounds like an endorsement for intentional schizophrenia .
In Christ,
Jordan

Well, let me see. I would suggest not going into gory details, but maybe add a few details such as black blood dripping from the end of the blade or staining a character's clothes. Here might be an example of a fight:

Gwaiher grunted as the orc's sword blocked his blow. His attention wandered to the other sides of the conflict. The warcries. The screams of the dying. The silence of the dead. The whine of arrows, the twang of bowstrings. His attention was jerked back to his own fight as the orc drew his crooked blade and swung it at his head. Gwaiher jumped backward and winced as the tip scraped along his armor. He swung his own sword over his head and felt satisfied as stopped with a meaty thunk. He jerked it out and headed for his next target, the enemy commander.

This is just a short example of what it could look like, with phrases like the following: back and forth they fought, swords flashing in the light, etc.

Seer, I about fell out of my chair when I read that...that would be SO funny to hear! Who won the argument?

Anyways, I haven't actually ever described a battle scene yet. I'm kind of averse to sword-fights, not because of the gore, but more because I want to do it right and I can't really. Also, I know nothing about sword-fighting at all, so maybe I should start a thread asking some questions like Zoey did for bows and arrows...

The only sword fights in my book is one at the end and practice ones that the MC does with a mentor. Also, the MC is attacked by wolves at one point, so I guess that could count as a fight. That's the only one I have any ideas for though..

My question is this. Jay is saying that you can't go through everything in agonizing detail, and you don't want to tell too much. Obviously, there's a balance, but how do you not say that much and still make the fight interesting to read. I can never understand the technical terms writers use in their books, things like this:

The tall man lunged at the short one with a quarter-length crosstave pommel-hilted long-sword. The short man moved his Rundia dagger into the Robinson position to deflect the devastating blow and then rained down short, quick Flunder attacks on the tall man. By the end the tall man had given up his Heria and he was cowering on the floor waiting for the short man to skewer-stab him.

Anyways, that's just a silly example, but seriously...I can't understand technical terms. But I want to make my fights believable. And I'm sure the average Joe Reader has a knowledge of swordfights more on my level then on a level that's actually knowledgeable about sword fighting. And if I go through the trouble to learn how to make sword-fighting accurate, then I've lost my reader.

That's the dilemma I face with sword fights...how to make it realistic yet understandable. How do y'all circumvent that problem?

And about the guy-girl thingy...I definitely have trouble writing characters of mine and making them sound like girls. I've bypassed this problem in the past by having 'tomboy' characters but those may just be a bit overdone in fantasy. Anyways, I don't have any sisters, plus my mom isn't really the fantasy type. (Neither is my Dad, so I guess my brother and I are some freak of genetical mixes... ). I have no problem with guy characters....obviously.

eruheran

Use phrases that give the reader a picture, but doesn't provide and technical moves. SO instead of saying "Joe did a half-reverse moulinet but was parried by an uppercut," you could put, "The two combatants fought back and forth, swords glinting and clashing. BAck and forth, they struggled to slip past the other's defenses. Cling! Clang!" and so on.

Well see that's the thing. Even though I don't know what all those terms are...that scene is still more interesting than the second one for me. The second one just doesn't seem realistic...I'm not sure why. But I don't want to make my sword fights filled with boring details.

What do you think are sword-terms that pretty much everyone would understand? Parry? Thrust? Lunge? Block? Those all seem pretty standard to me.

eruheran

Yeah, those are pretty standard and can be understood in context by most readers. But using those can get repetitive, I've done it.

I don't get into big fight scenes. I think I'm physically incapable of writing anything with an epic, full scale war in it like LotR. My 'battles' are usually duels. I know some technical terms, but who wants to hear technical terms? if you want a blow by blow detail of an expert battle go read a technical instruction book! They way I see it, you don't want to clutter up your writing with everything that's being done. They need just a glimpse, a sense, whatever. This can be done any variety of ways, depending on your style and your story. All the examples above seem good...

As to the talking business. It really depends on what they're fighting with and how long they've been fighting. The only battle scene that comes to mind of my own was a duel between two master swordsmen. No heavy broadswords or armor or anything, they'd grown up together practicing on each other, they each knew what the next one's move would be, so it's very believable that once character can rant the whole time without breaking his concentration. Even though it's very real, very deadly, it keeps the atmosphere of a practice session. If one character is much better than the other he can talk and taunt because he knows what he's doing well enough he doesn't have to concentrate as hard. And if they're both really good and just kind of toying with each other it's the same thing. So it's really relative...

I have more trouble with gun battles, they're harder to use onomatopoeia with.

I guess you'll have to do it the old fashioned way, write, write, and if it doesn't seem right, do it again.

I don’t think I struggle with writing males characters for the most part (although as a girl I have to be very conscious that my male characters remain masculine). If something I write causes the girl in me to go ‘awww’, then it needs to go. My main character is a guy (yeah, I know, I’ve been told I’m nuts) and most everything centers on him. My background helps me keep from making my MC girly.

As for fighting scenes, I’m with Becky, guys wouldn’t typically carry on a conversation while fighting. Now, if we are talking about a sword practice I could see guys egging one another on, but otherwise the mental and physical energy involved in battle would prohibit conversation. I agree it is probably harder for guys to portray girls.

I think of writing a battle scene like I would write a screenplay. When you are writing a screenplay you have to give every detail.
Example: Camera pans down to a young child reading a book. The door opens and we see a woman walk in, a bag slung over her shoulder. She sets her keys down as her gaze sweeps across the room (pan camera over toys strewn all over the floor).

Screenplay writers have to go over every detail in their script. I view my writing as the same basic thing since I’m a very visual reader. I just don’t add all the camera angles and stuff. Whatever I see in my mind is what I write. However, you shouldn’t over burden your reader either. Let them use their imagination too. Don’t dictate everything they should see. It’s a fine line.

Personally, I think the LotR wars are some of the best you can find anywhere. They don't go overboard with the "Wap! Crack! Pow! Holy paperclip, Batman!" and tell what's going on, how the battle's actually going. "W! C! P! HPB!"s don't really tell you anything, your character can be whaping and cracking and not even notice that the battle's pretty much over. Remember, battles end in stages. Yet in LotR you also get the emotion, like Eomer going berserk when he sees that Eowyn's dead, and it can also characterize the character, like Eomer's irrational charge after he goes berserk. In LotR you see absolutely no blow-by-blows, and that makes sense, when the adrenaline's pumping and you're galloping at full speed you're not going to be thinking "Okay, double parry, triple whap, disarming manouver 1.1157..." No, your mind goes faster than your thoughts, you're not going to be thinking about individual moves, you just go. And when you're describing battles in LotR style, in terms of the entire army rather than just one person, it lets the military leader's strategy and skill come out. Anyone (okay, not anyone) can swing a sword and knock heads off, but it takes true skill to stradegize, predict other army's moves and move your own proactively, all that lovely stuff.

If your characters are attacked by a band of Bad Guys in the forest or whatever it's a bit harder, but still I'm anti-Blow-by-blow. Blow-by-blows are so, so boring and so, so generic, and I almost always skip over them. I don't care if your character can do a triple-whammy-blast-off, but I do care that he/she jumps to protect a friend, or runs off, or climbs a tree to pick off people with arrows. You can actually tell more about someone's style and personality by how they move and behave under pressure, not what super cool sword moves they can do.

Books are a lot different than movies. You don't need to choreograph every single move.

As for the girls vs. guys thing, I'm the girl who's grown up running about with a wooden sword and researching medieval forms of torture and warfare and stuff, so I don't have a huge problem writing fight scenes. As for guys writing girls, ugh, most of the time I can't stand women written by men. Either they stay home and are so content and happy to be cooking and don't have any emotions beyond "Awww, I love my kids!" or they go out with a sword, whine a lot, and have no emotions beyond "Ugh, stupid men." Unless your name is Tolkien. Then I love you and your female characters. And the fact that you so glorify traditional "feminine" roles, yet also have women that can go out and fight. *hugs*

I agree you don't need to choreograph every move in a fight, but I do think we can learn from screenplay.

And I think there are other men besides Tolkien who can write women well.

I do like LotR battles though. Tolkien did a good job.

I think it depends on what POV your writing in, too. If it's first person it'd be hard to write a battle from a full-army viewpoint, unless it's a military commander observing his/her troops. Most blow-by-blow battles tend to happen when the author writes in the first person. I think blow-by-blow battles can be done, but most authors just go so overboard with it, and end up breaking up the flow of the story in order to a) show how much they know (or think they know) about swordplay, or b) because they think it'll build the tension. But really, in my opinion, it takes away from the suspense of it all. An army bursting out of some trees can be written as "An overwhelming tide of soilders burst out of the forest, surrounding the army and cutting off their retreat. There was no longer any chance of regrouping, of coming back some other day, the only choice now was to fight, though the chances of the army getting out alive, let alone winning the day, were slim." Then if you're writting blow-by-blow, it's more like "An army burst out of the trees, running full speed at Ben's army. With a yell he unsheathed his sword, parrying a blow before striking the head off his attacker. He swung around, stabbing under another man's hauberk..." Ugh, I got bored just writing that. I hope you kind of see what I mean, it's hard to put into words.

You can learn something from movies, but movies also have the luxury of being able to pull out and show you the armies, the entire battlefield. Some books are able to go out and then pull into one person, but I've actually never seen it done well.

As for men writing women, do you have any examples? Tolkien is the only one that ever comes to mind that can write women that are actually strong, cool characters yet make them have flaws and keep them from sugary, awful perfection.

Ooh, I like Tolkien on both accounts. They botched Arwen in the movies... :P

Okay, I'm not talking about drawing from movies; I'm talking about studying how a screen writer writes a screenplay. The things they use to help the director envision what the audience will be seeing. I agree that movies aren't really that helpful when it comes to writing.

I do have some examples. The fastest way for a male author to ruin a book (in my private, or not so private, opinion) is by making the main female a wimp. I also hate when women are wall flowers. The Lord created us to come alongside man, not sit by idly and watch him go about life. We, as women, complete men. If you read historical accounts of women on the prairie (I’m not talking about little house girls) The women were fierce! They had to defend their children from Indians and the elements. There are stories of women who put such fear into the hearts of the Indians that they were called “wild white she demons” and never bothered again. There is even an account of a wife whose husband had taken the family rifle with him hunting and she had to defend her home against five Indians with nothing but an axe. So I hate when women are presented as a priss. This said, I also enjoy seeing women who are portrayed as women and not tomboys that might as well just be men.

My literature examples are The Lost Clue, and the Left Behind Series. I have other ones, but I’m away from home at the moment and can’t go searching through my library. Chloe (one of the central characters) is a well portrayed female in my mind, throughout the series. I have certain slight issues with the series, but for the most part I think they are very well done. Chloe isn’t the only female character these two men portray well either, but she is the most developed.

I will agree that men have a harder time portraying a good female character, but I think it can be done and has been. Let’s be fair to the guys on the site ladies, I’m sure some of them could turn out some well portrayed females. If nothing else they will have to go to their sisters (like some of you do with your brothers) and ask for input.

I absolutely love stories like that! They make me so happy!
And I wasn't saying men can't write good women, Tolkien's women will always be some of my favorites, even over women written by women, just that many times they don't bother to try and figure out what women are actually like, and pick a stereotype and just go with that. I think women sometimes do that with men, but it tends to be men who botch women. Or maybe they just get more bad press. And I suppose I am a bit biased.

In an attempt to bring this on-topic, I definately think you can draw from how screenwriters write, you just have to be sure you know when to draw the line. Some authors narrate every tiny movement their character makes, and sometimes it feels like you're reading a really controlling director's note to an actor, telling him every little movement he should make to bring out a character's emotions, and you really can't do that. The emotion can sometimes speak even better through gross movements rather than fine ones, and I think battle scenes are scenes where that definately applies. Less sometimes truly can be more, and make the reader feel so much more than they would have if they had to figure out "Okay, a parry, then left stroke, wait, left, okay..." (Right now I'm pretending I'm a reader standing up pretending I'm swinging a sword to try and figure out what the character is doing. Oh, if forums had video capabilities...)

Ohhh, Arwen. Arwen squee fest here. She's probably the first woman in a "traditional" role I truly felt something for. (If you haven't been able to tell, I tend to like women who go the "Eowyn" route.) Her strength and bravery comes out so much, and I have no idea how Tolkien did it because she really only gets a bit of a story in the appendecis. But I just love her, and I know lots of times people get mad about her character because "Geez, she gave up everything for a man. What is Tolkien trying to say?" which I really don't like. They totally miss what she's all about.
I didn't completely hate the movie Arwen, though I do think they missed the mark in determining exactly what her strength was, (We almost ended up with her fighting in Helm's Deep!) and it really irritated me how Aragorn couldn't find strength until "Arwen is dying!" which made no sense. But I think Liv Tyler actually did okay, it would've been better if her part had been smaller, though. And then we might've gotten a better development of Eowyn's character! Eowyn is a character I actually do think they needed to develop better, because they missed all her complexities. Though I truly loved the lady who played her.

I completely agree. We need to leave room for the reader’s own imagination, not dictate everything to them. That’s half the fun of reading a book. I like the complexities, but you can’t let them bog down the story.

I'll be introducing female characters soon in my story... I have to at some point right? I'm now getting nervous lol! Nah... I already have my plans in motion for that, and I think I can deliver.

Chloe Steele Williams, I think, was my favorite character in the Left Behind Series. She had to be modeled after someone the authors knew, she just had "real" personality. And now.... now I want a cookie

Shawn, cookie alert!

I completely agree on the Chloe front. Don't worry 6strings, if you get off the beaten path I'll let you know. I don't think you'll have too hard of a time writing your female character, your writing is pretty organic, I doubt you'd stoop to a cliché, especially if you're a Chloe fan!

6string, I now give thee a cookie for allowing me to read thy marvelous and intriguing story. Oh yeah, and your comments too.

Okay, my mighty attempt at returning to the topic is this; avoid using a bunch of anamanapias. They just seem really cheesy in a fight. Your reader doesn't really want to read a bunch of whacks, splats, and booms when they are reading a fight sequence.

haha glad you like it

and Airianna... I didn't even know "anamanapias" was a word but yes, I think SMASH!!! Bang!!! Kapow! and such should be reserved to comic books

Yep! I've always had a broad vocabulary. I was talking (and I mean everybody I came in contact with could understand me) at seven months. My parents were scared to death when my brother came along four years later and didn't talk till he was two. My mom says that's why I'm a writer (and because I'm an artist and any form of artistic expression fascinates me), because I love words!

Anamanapia is a word that describes the sound something makes when in action. So it's words that make the sound they express. As a funny side note, flip-flops are an anamanapia.

Anamanapias are definitely for comic books as a general rule.

i think my brain is burning lol. Nah... that's actually kind of cool!

Thanks.

*whistles* 7 months? Wow. That is rather impressive.

Yeah, apparently my doctors thought so too.

I bet so!

Why am I completely unsurprised that you learned to talk so early?

eruheran

:P *looks innocent* What would make you say that?

when I was born, I didn't come out crying. I was singing Nesun Dorma






ok.... maybe not, but it sounded good

I'd agree, it sounded good.