I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet.

When I was little (8-13) I was obsessed with torture. My favorite magazine was Voice of the Martyrs. My favorite book was Buried Alive for Christ. We didn't have a copy of Foxe's book of Martyrs, but when my dad got a copy of the Martyr's mirror I devoured it like candy. The spanish inquisition was one of my favorite periods in history, my sister and I played all sorts of games that involved our characters getting tortured, we invented or recreated torture implements, we were creepy little kids.

I grew out of it, eventually, and my dad's long list of Holocaust and reformation martyr movies we watched one winter gave our whole family a big enough dose of martyrdom we didn't even want to talk about the subject for months after. Now I approach the subject with hesitancy and a little fear, and a little worry.

Where does torture fall on the moral/violence/graphic/evil scale? How do you deal with it? Notice, my source of reading material was all Christian. It is a real thing. But how do you deal with it in fiction? Do you avoid it all together? Do you just skip around it lightly?

I don't like torture scenes. Ever. They make me feel all crawly inside, like I'm feeling what the characters are feeling. It's pretty strange. But I really do not like torture scenes.

I like how they handled it in Star Wars Ep. 4 and 5 (first thing that comes to mind) -- they cut away with no doubt of what was happening, but you never see anything.

Just as a personal preference, I don't like torture scenes very much. Likewise, I think that some times they can actually distract from the main story if it's not done correctly.

I think the ultimate purpose of torture is to bring about a clearer distinction of good versus evil. It can be a tricky subject, but I believe avoiding the subject is unhealthy. While we don’t want to be gruesome and become R rated, we don’t want a torture scene to feel like a slap on the hand either.

People throughout history (as you are very aware of, Janin) have been tortured for their beliefs and principles. Look at the Bible. Christ was tortured and nailed to a cross. You see His anguish and physical pain. I don’t think it is wrong for us to feel those emotions, or unhealthy for us as a writer to try to evoke them. We are to challenge our readers and make them grow past their comfort zone if need be.

While I agree with Melody that these scenes may be uncomfortable, I also believe it should stimulate discomfort. I don’t think Fantasy stories necessarily have to have torture in them, but I also don’t think it is wrong. Humans are naturally depraved; this is an element we should carry into our writing. Torture is a tool we can use to show the baseness and ultimate blackness of evil. This is an aspect that helps to sharpen the difference between good and evil. I think you are wise to be hesitant and careful in your presentation Janin, but I don’t think it is wrong for you to include it in your works.

Sometimes torture is a tool used to solidify a character’s passion for justice, or it is used to spur them on to fight for the down trodden. While it is true that torture can be an element of distraction, it can also be a pivotal turning point in a story. I use torture in my own stories, although most of the time it is heard through hearsay. However, I do include a scene where my character undergoes physical torture at the hands of his adversary. It helps to show the vileness of the villain of my tale. Just use sound judgment and discretion Janin. I don’t like it anymore than the next person, but it can be used as a tool.

I think it's okay to use torture, if it's used properly. It would be better to not make it very graphic, I'm sure, but you don't have to leave it out of the story entirely. However, it's not something you have to have either, if you don't think you should write something of that nature.

This is an interesting topic... By the way, I had a similar childhood obsession with torture, which I too grew out of

I think it's ok to use it, just do it in an un-R-rated way. There's my 2 cents

@Lady Terra:I feel much better now. I'm not the only one.

@Evening: Well, Lightning Ranger gets tortured a lot. Actually, truth be told, that's how he got invented. I got tired of never being able to escape from my sister's dungeons so I invented a hero character...

I guess I had an interesting childhood. Actually, I'm sure most people have interesting childhoods but most people probably don't find it affects their writing as badly as mine does.

Thanks everyone, for the responses.

Yay, I'm not the only one! haha

LOLOL

Incidentally, I remember reading a quote about writing someplace that said that the best writers had ::very:: interesting childhoods... I don't remember where that was, though, or I'd quote it exactly for ya. ;D

I just moved this thread from "Technology" to "Theology".

Laugh and move on.

Interesting. I chose Technology since, if we were discussing torture methods, that's where it'd go. I considered almost every category on the forum... Do I have a special talent for coming up with topics that don't fit anywhere?

Anyway, I listened to the soundtrack for Wicked for the first time yesterday. I now have a new favorite song; No Good Deed. (links: YouTube Grooveshark)

I realized, today, that torture is an incredibly powerful tool for swaying your audience to sympathy for a particular character, regardless of whatever else they think of him. I didn't like the character of Fiyero. I didn't like the way he sings, I don't like his attitude, his dancing, his songs, or his philosophy. But he becomes one of my favorites when he is captured rescuing one of the other characters and is later tortured to reveal her hiding place. You don't see anything of the torture, in fact, you only know of it through the girls' song, she's trying to save him and failing. It's epically, heartbreakingly wonderful. I love the song, and I love the characters.

Just another random thought there.

I'd agree with everyone else. Torture, like many things in books is fine and even has a good effect on the story as a whole if shown as evil and not too graphic. You want it to be creepy, but you don't want them lying awake at night scared stiff, unless you're writing a horror story.

I've never had an obsession with torture although I did find it interesting when I was younger.

I think it would be a good idea to post scenes here for editing. If it gets too long, we could move it to its own thread. I haven't gotten to any torture scenes with my characters yet, although he has had several beatings.

I'm okay with posting my "torture" scene. However, until I hear back from a few others on their reactions to this idea, I won't post.

We could start a twin thread in Story Excerpts for "Torture Scenes". It would be clear what it was, it would warn people away, it wouldn't clutter up this, and it would give us all a safe place to put it. I don't think I've actually written any, I was scared away, as I said. But I read them. *shrug*. I like watching characters suffer, to an extent that is. Not like... Que Vadis, but to a reasonable extent. I'm not sure why, maybe pain makes them more real to me than happiness does. It's strange... maybe I haven't got over that obsession.

Good idea, Janin. Can't promise I'll be over there (squeamish.....), though.

we could also have a thread for 'dying' scenes, because after torture scenes, those are the next most touchy types. I'd probably be able to stand being over there. Usually when you kill a character, it's less...painful.

As a writer, I don't like to see my characters suffer, but in a way, I'm eager to go through the torture scene because I know who they (my characters) will become in the end. I like helping them along their growing process. I know that Tierin will become a better person after having experienced the evil of Dunndar. I also know that the treatment he receives will help to solidify his desire to free his people (he’s not a prince) from this madman’s cruelty. And finally, the death of his family and the protection of his sister (Airianna) will be the driving force behind all that he does. So I look forward to the torture scene in my book not because of Tierin’s pain, but because of the end result. I have a stronger character who is no longer struggling with whether or not he just wants to be an ostrich and put his head in the sand, oblivious to his world of pain.

I think you idea of a new thread is excellent Janin.

Ok, I'll admit right now I don't mind torture that much in books. However when we get visual with movies like Braveheart (never watching that movie again! ) or the Passion of the Christ I'm usually the one screaming "Tell me when it's over!"

I have a few torture scenes that are coming up in my book and I'm have trouble trying to figure out how to portray it. So if you've got different portraying methods or ideas, I'm all ears.

That reminds me... I still need to watch Braveheart...

Yeah, me too..

I need to watch Braveheart too, but I'm not sure when I will because my mom saw it once and never wants to see it again. She also doesn't want to watch Titanic so I haven't seen that either.

Why is it a need? I read the appropriate Henty book (For Freedom's Cause) and I think I'm good on the topic of Wallace and Bruce. ;D

You'd get more accurate information reading For Freedom's Cause than from watching Braveheart. Which I've heard has two inappropriate scenes in.

It does! And I assure you, if you haven't see it you don't need to watch it.

I haven't seen either. My sister never wants to see the movie Ben Hur again. Ever. My dad had us watch it on Easter...
Yeah, the times around when Wallace and Bruce were have plenty of torture. Ick.

That's what I had heard. My Dad said he watched it when he was younger and it was not something he would let his children watch. I trust Daddy's judgment, he's never steered me wrong yet. And our family has watched Gods and Generals and Master and Commander, so we aren't not watching Braveheart because of the violence.

That's what I figured.

Not really interested in it; just curious why it's so important.

I agree with some who have replied saying that sometimes it's necssasary to protray torture. Not as a, "Hey, I wanna turn people's stomachs for fun!" but more of a, "This is the horrible truth of what someone has had to go through for what they believe in."

I for one am squeamish. My goal is to get over that. (Seeing as how I'm looking into massage therapy I have to get comfortable with muscles, ect.)



Back when The Passion of the Christ came out in 2003? My mom had our family watch it on DVD in 2004. (at the time I was 11.) She made us watch it so we could see that Jesus payed an incredibly price for our sins. Many people say it was overly done with the torture. I agree with my mom when I think many movies have dumbed down what our Lord went through. It was an absolutely horrific what He suffered for us, and my mom wanted us to know that.

Here's a link to one of the reviews: http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbc ... 40301/1023

For me, I think it depends on how you portray torture.

Nice way to put it, Calen. (I like that nickname, by the way. Hmm, an MC could be named that...)

Braveheart is a classic. I want to see it. My dad saw it, and he's okay with us older children watching it.

On the other hand, my dad has not seen and has no intention of seeing, the Passion.

Anyway, back on topic, here's your Torture scenes thread. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1086

I haven't actually written any torture scenes, but I'll read them.

Thanks for the compliment, Shawn. ^^

As to the nickname, thanks as well. ;D It is actually. Very vaguely I have a character who I have to work on developing named Calen. ^^

It sounds familiar... but I think my character is name Calin. Not sure. That's Heroes of Ynoureth and I haven't worked on it in forever...

So, out of curiosity Janin, why is your Dad okay with Braveheart (which has nudity in it) but not okay with The Passion?

I didn't think of Calen originally. It's short for Calenmiriel. No worries there. ^^

(Sorry, things are off topic.) ><

Hmm, I didn't know that, I might rethink seeing it now.

Thanks for the compliment Lady E.

As to the story excerpts, Janin put warnings on the thread that I thought were good.

Um... I'm not entirely sure, I haven't seen either movie, and I haven't had this precise discussion, but...

The Passion, (from what I've heard) is full of what my dad will call gratuitous violence. Violence for the sake of violence. I've heard it's not even biblically accurate and based on a book written by a Catholic mystic: she supposedly had a vision of the events she recorded. (No offense to any Catholics who may be reading this: I think I may have offended one of my Catholic friends by saying that exact sentence the wrong way because I didn't know she was Catholic at the time. )

Braveheart: I have no idea. My parents saw it, my mom hated it, my dad talks about it all the time. Nudity actually isn't that big of a deal, because he'll just stick a pillow in front of the screen and we'll all be fine. We haven't discussed actually watching it, although I think he'd let me, because my mom really, really, really doesn't want to see it again.

Okay, I don't think this is a really important subject, I was just wondering why your dad was okay with the violence in Braveheart and not in the Passion. On a violence level I don't see it being any different than Braveheart (from conversations I’ve had).

My parents were torn between seeing the Passion or not. In the end we did (for various reasons) and while lots of the movie was slanted to a certain point of view, the violence level was historically appropriate. As a side note, I went into the theater scared to death because I envisioned the violence being a lot worse than it was in the movie. Don’t get me wrong, it was violent, but my parents wanted us to fully understand what Christ went through on the cross (doctrinally and from a physical standpoint as well) so I knew all kinds of things about the process that made me think the movie would be worse.

I don’t want to break out into a big discussion on seeing the movie (Braveheart) or not, I’m just saying For Freedom’s Cause is way more accurate. Braveheart has lots of slants too. However, this isn't really a profitable discussion since I believe every family has different views (as it should be). I hope you enjoy the movie if you do watch it. Your father has viewed it and he has your best interest at heart, so if he think you could benefit from seeing it I don’t think anyone could argue against that.

Well, right, and having not seen either movie myself I'm not in a position to defend either view. I know parents who have gone both ways with the Passion; and that's just my parents personal decision. Cookies for you for recognizing that.

As far as history goes, I already know the history. I've read multiple histories of Scotland. I already know about William Wallace, and I know a great deal about medieval torture...

Which statement brings us back on topic, right?

Nope, now I want to know what kind of cookie I get!

Has anyone read The Crown And Covenant series by Douglas Bond? (fantastic author, BTW) It has adventure, some (not too nasty) torture, and it is mostly written with a Scottish brogue (which I love!)

Those books are amazing! *goes to write reviews for intothebook*

I've read them, but it was a while ago and I don't rember any torture...hmmm

There isn't really any torture that is portrayed. The persecution of the Christian Scotts is just mentioned. Plus their houses are burned and their livestock stolen.

There's a bit of nasty description... Not a whole lot. Has anyone read his Hostage Lands? He is just amazing in Historical Fiction... I could rave about him for a while, but the TPC might come...

Hostage Lands is on my wish list.

This is my 4th year of Latin, so I especially enjoyed it!