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 Post subject: Salvation in the Mirror of the White Staff
PostPosted: March 15th, 2010, 2:48 pm 
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A quick summary is that God provided a staff combined from a redwood branch (maybe a seed instead) that a white mirest dips into a clearwater pond where no ripples broke the water. The white mirest was the son given to the first parents after they sinned. This son was gifted with the power to create this staff, though the power to forgive lies in the mirror and derives from God. The mirest is merely the messenger.

So far I've posted in history and magic on this idea, and then I wrote something in my history of Oloven part 2 thread that scared me.

(People can still be redeemed by faith in God's provision when there is no white mirest alive, but then what is the point of having a mirest? This could be a problem... **)


My idea for the mirror is that looking into it is like looking into the Word of God. If you have a repentant heart and the Spirit is working, the Word will pierce your heart and could also give you saving faith. It will show you who you are (a sinner in need of forgiveness) and your desire combined with faith will make you a new creature, born of the Spirit. The mirrored staff makes this change, but when that staff is not available, the message of what God did for the first "Adam" (Goeshin - changed from Goeson...?) can save as well. This may be the solution to my problem.

When the white staff was captured God spoke through prophets to record the history of His works on this earth. These prophets revealed that it was faith that saved people from the very beginning, and the people didn't need a mirest or the white staff to believe that God offered a way of forgiveness. They just had to believe that His way did and does forgive.

Now that I think about that, I wonder if using the tree and the water isn't a supportable parallel to being born of the flesh and the spirit. John 3 says we have to be born naturally and a second time through the Spirit, so what if the redwood symbolizes the natural birth (red=blood and tree coming from the earth) and the rippleless, clear water represents being born from above/Spirit (clear water = sinlessness and cleansing)?

This might change the direction of my book from a white mirest protagonist seeking the staff to save the people to that mirest using the staff to kill the dark mirest Ojik....or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Salvation in the Mirror of the White Staff
PostPosted: March 15th, 2010, 9:29 pm 
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Good question. I go into that in my History of Oluve part one post. In short, the first white mirest killed his younger brother with his white staff, which God then cursed, along with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Salvation in the Mirror of the White Staff
PostPosted: March 16th, 2010, 7:10 pm 
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If someone misuses one of His creations, and he curses them and it (the staff) does that mean God made them evil? God made Lucifer, but after the rebellion, God cursed him for his evil decisions with the fruit of his labor. Does this further explanation solve that problem for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Salvation in the Mirror of the White Staff
PostPosted: March 17th, 2010, 10:09 pm 
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What do you mean by God cursing the rod to make it destructive?

I've got to think about this; your observation is astute. What I'm trying to do is have the staff that God made for salvation become cursed to lead to others damnation. Could this coincide with your view of it being destructive or judgment?

I can see a problem in the staff damning someone to pure evil before they die because of the paradox between free will and predestination making it a matter of perspective (God vs. Man) that one can be damned before they die. In other words, it seems that until our last breath, we have the option of choosing to believe, whereas, from God's eternal perspective, He knows who will believe and who won't. Therefore, would it be ok for this staff to essentially deliver people's souls to Satan before they die? They are choosing to look into the dark staff with the desire to become absent of any good. Is God creating evil by cursing a staff He made for good to become a tool for judgment? In your view, is this a tool for judgment? I get the feeling, the way I'm wording it, you don't think so. (I'm still working this out, and your observations are invaluable, so thanks for working through this with me.) Are you saying that by God cursing this staff to be something that "makes" them evil, He is creating evil?

Let me try to find a parallel from Scripture:

Rom. 7:5, 10-13: For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death...And the commandment, which [was] to [bring] life, I found to [bring] death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed [me]. Therefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

My idea does not perfectly allegorize this passage, but I think with some work it might. Allegories are not meant to be perfect, as long as they don't contradict in vital areas of emphasis. I need to think about this some more, but here goes my first try: When Elkuund drove the first white staff into his righteous younger brother, Lu, the "law" aroused sinful passions that bore fruit ultimately in death. V.5 - In my story, Lu is the law, and when Elkuund's sinful action penetrated his heart, sinful passions were aroused in Elkuund's heart that would overcome him and lead to death. (i.e. Lu's example of righteousness=God's example of righteousness in the Law (it's more of a command than an example really, but Jesus fulfilled those commands (except the 1st) by example through obedience, and so did Lu (though he's not God))) V.10 - In my story, Lu's obedience was to bring life, while Elkuund's disobedience brought death. V. 11 - Elkuund saw Lu's obedience and submission and did the complete opposite, posing as a friend, and then killed him. V. 13 - Did the white staff (what is good) become death to Lu? (did the perfect staff that God created for Elkuund kill Lu - certainly not) but Elkuund's actions produced death so that when Elkuund's act was compared to Lu's, it was seen as exceedingly sinful.

Have I lost my train of thought? I think v. 5 illustrates my intention, that Lu's perfect example produced death in Elkuund's deceitful act because without Lu's perfect example, Elkuund's act would not have been as bad (weighty theological debate to ensue about dispensationalism and judgment before the Law, but aside from that... :shock: ) and as a result Elkuund was cursed to carry with him a staff that produced death (spiritual and physical, though God is the only one who can kill the body and the soul, so...does that still work?).

whew. sorry for the unpolished nature of my free-thinking exercise. it has been helpful for me (as opposed to taking a few days to rewrite it until it's perfect), so thanks for reading!

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 Post subject: Re: Salvation in the Mirror of the White Staff
PostPosted: March 20th, 2010, 12:52 pm 
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A short summary based on my last post:

Lu represents the Law because he showed an example of how we are to act. When Elkuund pierced his heart with the white staff, he rejected God's commandments and offer of salvation. When Satan did this he was cast down from Heaven and was given power to work evil on earth, though not without God's permission (Job 1, Zech. 3).

Is your main problem with the dark staff? Would you be ok with Elkuund just having evil powers like sorcerers and necromancers? What if Elkuund corrupted his staff by using it to kill Lu, and this makes it a tool of damnation? (btw, am I allowed to use that word? how about Hell?)

Does this idea fit with how God allows people to use what He created for good to be used for evil? For example, God gave us free will to be used for worship, but we use it for evil when we sin. I'm not sure, because that is a decision, while the staff is an inanimate object. I can't really think of objects being cursed in the Bible.

I can think of holy objects, like the Ark of the Covenant, and how God killed people who touched it, and cursed areas for stealing it. But I can't think of God changing an object once used for good into one used to condemn.

Are there any instances in the Bible, or do you think it would be possible for God to curse an object? I have an object in my book that is similar to the bronze serpent Moses held up to heal those who looked upon it. If Moses used that pole for evil, let's say by killing God's anointed one, could God curse that pole s...o that those who looked upon it would be damned instead of saved?

I'm going to start another topic thread to discuss what powers I intend for this staff.





kind of like the crucifixion of Jesus by the Jews/Romans. The J

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