Many Christian fantasy stories center around character who are Christians, whether allegorically or literally. It is not uncommon to have a Pilgrim's Progress style journey to find the object of their faith or to learn the lesson set out before them. These stories being so often about journeys, it is difficult to keep the characters from "giving up meeting together" when they are limited in their companions and do not tarry anywhere long.

By contrast, the institution of the church often represents the dark side of religion or the misapplication of doctrine to suit and establish a specific agenda whether that belongs to an individual in power or a secret society.

How do you characterize church of the Church in your writings? What does your presentation say about the Church? What are some other ways you have seen it presented, and what are still more ways that we could approach the topic in fantasy and sci-fi settings?

I really love this question, Kitra, but my battery is going to die soon so I will put this on the shelf for now.

Anyway, I think it's a cool/important question we should ask ourselves about our stories and/or other people's stories.

Areth,

Ka

My experience of modern Western Christianity has been that it tends to be rather...individualistic. It's mostly about you and your personal relationship with God and your walk of faith, and sometimes neglects the importance of community and dependance on other people in healthy Christian life. And similarly, in modern Western Christianity it seems that many people want believers to be more or less equal and want to minimize all that hierarchical authority structure stuff. I'm generalizing a LOT here; I've seen plenty of churches that don't fall into these tendencies, but I think that the tendencies are still there. Anyways, I suspect that this focus on independence, equality and your personal relationship with God is part of the reason why so many Christian fantasy stories concern individual walks of faith, e.g. Pilgrim's Progress, and neglect the role of the church. Not to mention the fact that powerful organized churches, e.g. the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, are classic bad guys in literature...

I personally think that God's institutions are like God's people: flawed, liable to make horrible mistakes, but also, with God's grace, capable of doing incredible amounts of good. Ultimately God is going to use His people and His institutions in all their imperfection for His glory. So if we write stories about flawed Christians who still learn and grow and do good, shouldn't we also write stories about flawed churches that learn and grow and do good?

I haven't actually written any stories yet focusing on the Church, but for one of my Sheesanian countries, Arandu, I've been developing a complex church structure that wields a lot of power there. I want the Arandui Church to be a realistic example of the mixture I see in churches of good and evil, and I want its role in Arandui history to demonstrate how God has watched over it and used it for good even when it strayed off the right path. And I'm also having tons of fun coming up with lots of symbolism and liturgy and whatnot. I think I may be overdoing it a bit, in fact...

Anyways, thanks for bringing up this question, and I look forward to seeing other responses! I think I could rant on for days about individualism and independence in American Christianity in particular, but I doubt that would be wise...

That is very similar to the points C.S. Lewis makes in Membership, an essay he wrote that I just read before I read your post. It would be interesting to see fantasy stories (or even sci-fi!) centered allegorically, or plot-wise, around a church. It would be nice to see them presented with complexity too, since the church body is going to be as collectively complex as each individual.

Ever since I started writing, I have had a hard time trying to make religion work at all, and most of what I knew was all the ways that I did not want to do it. But this week I sorted out how I think it will work. So I'm just starting to figure out churches, now. Structure is what I am having the most problems with.

I understand what you mean, Kitra, about the independent journies that are common in Christian stories, but I don't think Pilgrim's Progress itself is an example of that. Often, he is only with a person for a short time before moving on to the next person, but that is because the people are spiritual archetypes, I think. Christian is usually never able to handle things by himself, there is usually always some participation from the archetypes around him, which would be filled, in real life, by the people of the church.

Individualism is, to a degree, correct. 'Let a man examine himself', 'joint-heirs', 'all ye are brethren', 'whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all', and stuff.

I think in a vague way, I understand what you are criticizing, however. I'm just not certain I know exactly what you're saying. Could you talk about it a little more?

I read it, and now I think I understand a little better, but I'm not certain, still, that I know what you guys are talking about.

Oh, it absolutely works for Pilgrim's Progress. Since it's an allegory of the Christian walk, it must be a journey. The characters are either aspects of faith, or ways of thinking, so they are all going to come and go to a degree, because a lot of this is all what happens inside oneself as they walk out their faith. Real people will be more complex than that though.

Oh yes, I would agree that many forms of individualism are healthy. But there are two particular individualistic ways of thinking that I believe aren't healthy that I want to criticize:

1) The glorification of independence and self-sufficiency. I started writing a looooong explanation of this one because I'm kind of obsessed with it, but that's not what you were asking about, so I deleted it.

2) Overextension of equality. All believers are equal before God in many ways. We were all sinners who were saved through Jesus's grace, we all have the Holy Spirit, we're all made in the image of God and are valuable to Him, &c. But that doesn't mean that some believers shouldn't be in authority over others; consider all the stuff in the NT about elders. Or consider the various teachings (I could easily go find the verses if you would like) about how some will gain more reward in heaven than others. We're equal in some ways, but not in others. Strongly individualistic Christian doctrine can insist we're equal where we're really not, and thus wind up with weak leaders and other problems. (Of course, NON-individualistic Christian doctrine can have other issues with equality.)

I don't have a lot of personal experience with this issue in churches - for heaven's sake, I have hardly any experience with churches in the first place, as I've never regularly attended a church! (And let me clarify that this is just because of where I live. If I was in America, where there are churches whose services aren't all in Arabic, I would regularly attend.) I also haven't yet done very thorough Bible study about the whole equality thing. So yeah, don't take me too seriously. But I have seen some of the consequences of Christian organizations without strong authority structures. In the example I'm thinking of, I'm not sure if the lack of good authority structure was directly due to over-individualistic thinking...but I know the central people involved as staunch individualists, so...

I'm going to jump on this discussion on sheesania's side.

I too definitely see in American/Western culture a complete over-glorification of individualism. So much that at times I'm nauseated.

To start off, I'll clarify that a healthy sense of self-identity and individuality is the necessary foundation for strong character and healthy personality. So with that out of the way, I'll move on.

I believe that the only way we can find ourselves truly is in community. This applies to family, church, and all forms of community that we find ourselves in. God did not make man alone. He made him to be in relationships - and relationships can only be had in community with other people.

We don't "find ourselves" by going out alone, like the epic lone ranger that we all look up to in Western culture (for what logical reason, may I ask??). We "find ourselves" in community - through our place in our family, church, and etc....we find ourselves through our interactions with others, because it is only in the context of interacting with others that we have a counter-point upon which to evaluate ourselves. How can we have any sense of individuality outside of the larger context of other individuals?

This seems to be completely contrary to my perception of Western culture. We glorify the person who withdraws into themselves (meditation). We glorify the long ranger who is sufficient by himself. We glorify those who break the basic mold of what makes us human (I think).
We don't hold up the example of the mother who sees her identity within the community of her family and church. We don't hold up the example of a young man who finds his identity through helping those in need of labor in the church. (Maybe those are a bit weak examples, but.....I think you get the point. I hope. )

This reflects itself when we come to the question of the church quite strongly. It is no longer the well-connected, interdependent Christian who is an example of a strong Christian, but the Christian who is strong in himself and doesn't need any of the the fellowship or community of a church to be a strong and well-developed Christian. At least, that seems to be the natural outflow of applying Western individualism to the church. And in many ways, I think this is a subtle way of thinking that HAS crept into some parts of the church. The independent Christian is viewed as the stronger individual.

This highly individualistic way of thinking I believe comes hand in hand with a rejection, or at least a suspicion, of organized, hierarchical communities, and the church is one such institution/community. Thus it is put forward as a misdirected or even evil antagonist (if it is presented at all) in much recent literature - if it's addressed at all.
This misses the mark of God's design for the church.

It is supposed to be a center in which we find ourselves, I think in a very major way. A community God has provided (not the only one) in which we find our individuality.
As such, I believe we should portray a view of the church (with all its flaws, as sheesania said, which is a key and integral part of realistic literature), that shows it to be what it can be, and SHOULD be: a community in which we find our individuality.

Egh. I was hoping to actually argue this out with more logical arguments. Instead I just spouted what I believe. Oh well. Please ask questions if I was unclear or confusing.

Areth,

Ka

There are no sides here. It's not an argument, just an exchange of writing application.

So how have you portrayed churches (or the interdependent faith) in your writing?

I'm sorry if I'm getting too off the topic of actual writing. At the moment I'm not really clear on how much these Theology threads should be about writing and how much they can just be about, well, theology...but let me know if I'm getting it wrong!


I was once speaking with a friend of my grandfather's, one of the most wise and experienced Christian men that I know. He told me that nothing feels better than being independent. This was while I was on a trip traveling around America, driving in someone else's car that we would put a few thousand miles on, staying in other people's homes, eating other people's food, hearing them listen to us, pray for us, give us advice...I felt horrible disagreeing with this man because I respect him so much, but I had to (in my head - I didn't actually contradict him out loud! ). Maybe if I'd stayed shut up at home in my own house with my own car and my own food I would have felt self-sufficient. But traveling around America, depending on other people, I felt loved. It astounded and saddened me that a man with his experience wouldn't realize that.

Must not get on rant...


How about the young mother who joyfully submits to her husband, who spends almost all her time at home raising her children, who listens to the advice of her parents and other wise older people in her church? Does she get any respect in mainstream American culture for her contentment and joy and the incredibly important work she's doing in raising godly children and supporting her husband?

STILL must not get on rant...The thing with this individualism stuff is that it has major implications not just for churches, but also for friendships, marriages, politics...

Anyways, as for actual writing, I've been trying for a while to come up with an interesting magic system that forces people to depend on and work with others. (Though I feel stupid coming up with magic systems when I can count on my fingers the number of series I've read with much magic in them.) I like the idea of using magic to represent (or really to BE) the underlying dynamics and principles that support a community. So I thought it might be interesting to write a story where the rules of the magic pattern off the systems and principles established by God that make interdependence so healthy and productive. For instance, I think God loves to provide for us by having other people give to us, and I think this is because then people's needs are met while also strengthening their relationships. In other words, giving/sharing leads to profit - profit in the realm of relationships, not in actual money. So then how about a magic system where power increases when you give it to somebody else...? (With certain limitations, naturally, to make giving a bit difficult and not too overpowered.)

[modding]Theology is about how the principles of our faith and understanding of God play into our writing. Sometimes there are discussions as to the verity of certain principles and practices, but for the most part, it is about how to represent them well in our writing.[/modding]


That sounds fascinating. The nature of selflessness having profit having physical manifestations will be really interesting to see.

Sorry Kitra...I didn't mean to try to frame this as a debate. I just wanted to logically and clearly present my beliefs and feel that I failed a bit.

But yeah, this isn't an argument.

I have not actually dealt extensively with the issue of the church in my writing (yet). In my Khartur series, however, I really want to represent (in at least one of the books, hopefully all of them) the fallen-yet-ordained institution of the church working in the lives of my protagonists. Because the series is multi-generational, the dynamic and vitality of the church will change pretty drastically from book to book, thus giving (hopefully) a very real feel to my readers of the different directions in which the church can fail - but also (again hopefully) a sense of constancy as to how the true church is supposed to operate as a community in which we find our individuality and identity based upon our relationship with Christ (first) and the rest of His body (others).

In a different (as-yet still amorphous) series pertaining to Khartur, I want to explore where power stems from, and present the church as the most powerful and stable community - more powerful than the state, than other rival religious groups, etc. (with the qualification in place that the power I'm talking about isn't material or physical or "worldly" - though it is definitely real power). And with the other qualification that it's an imperfect system because carried out by imperfect people.


That type of magic system really sounds fascinating, sheesania. I think that's a beautiful way to clothe such an important theme in the habiliments of subtle artistry. (Pardon my antiquated speech. )

Areth,

Ka

Does yours focus on the church global, or a more specific region or parish, Karthmin?

Good question, Kitra.

Because Khartur is the "chosen" nation, the church is quite regional and local. It's not actually super "established" (although some of that depends on what time period you're looking at).

I don't want to get into the "nuts and bolts" of the institutional aspect of church, but rather look at it from a more ideological perspective. What are the ideas being worked out in this error of how a church should function? What ideas are being worked out in how this specific church is properly functioning? Stuff like that.
I want to present the ideas behind it all, rather than the specific forms.

So in this sense, I want to mainly treat/examine/write about localized expressions of the global church, but in such a way that the reader is exposed to, subconsciously and artfully, the ideas behind how different churches function (or fail to function).

However, I don't want to give the impression that it doesn't matter how you operate as a church. There are good ways and there are bad ways. I guess I just want to show how ideas are the framework and baseline out of which outward forms of church function flow, rather than just fixating on the superiority or faultiness of the form itself without examining the idea behind the form.
Egh. I think I'm beginning to repeat myself.

So yes and no. I want to focus on the local church, but in a way that allows for universal application to the global church. (?) Sounds about right.

Areth,

Ka

Egnitheos has a church body in it. It is based very heavily in the Old Testament Temple and things like that, since Egnitheos is set in a pre-Messianic era.

How do they approach their relationship with God and with each other in that case?

For my story, the Delshasrae are EXTREMELY individualistic about their faith. It's a song/dance/painting, etc. They don't talk about it among themselves, and if they do, it's between family or close friends. They also don't play the "I'm Saved, You're not" card; the Anlas make that decision, not you. They are "historical animists", more on that later, and they worship the Anlas as law givers. After that, live your religion, and murder no one. Making the above mistake, or calling a Delshasrae a sinner (dishonorable) is grounds for an instant duel, or a simple beating if you're socially inferior.

Most of their religion, I'm not going to lie, is hang over/damage from my evangelization to Christianity. I also wanted to see what would happen to a religion whose creation story was that in The Magician's Nephew, or the Silmarillion. So, mash those together and interesting things happen.

PS: I don't have a problem discussing my evangelization and testimony, just not in public. PM if interested.

This what I am having a problem with, I believe. Especially the part about authority. I get community, and I agree with you, Alison, about interdependence (though I think you shouldn't be too hard on the man for saying independence feels good.. independence means several things, and if independence means 'I can make enough money that I don't have to beg on the street or give in to everything my cousin says because I live at his house', for example, then I bet that feels good ). Complete independence doesn't work. We weren't made for that.

And.. authority... Hm. *makes a face* What does the new testament say about spiritual authority? I mean, what does 'authority' actually, honestly look like? I have a hard time understanding things unless I can see them in my head, and I can't see this. I see other kinds of authority, like, my parents telling me to go to bed, the government telling me to keep contracts, and God telling me to love him.

What is correct spiritual authority? *frowns*

Why thank you I'm hoping that it will be part of a whole Christian economics magic thing that I'm working on. I might post about that later...right now the magic system still has some major issues and unclear bits...


Ooooh...So basically you want to show different worldviews and philosophies that exist within the global church, and then how they work out in practice? Nice! I would love to read something like that! That would be especially cool if you did it in a series that involved many times and places, and so then the reader would get to see LOTS of different incarnations of the church and how they worked in different ways towards what is ultimately the same purpose.

This is a bit random, but have you read anything by Ursula K. Le Guin? I've only read two of her novels (The Lathe of Heaven and The Dispossessed), but in both of them she does a phenomenal job of crafting worldviews and then demonstrating what practical effects they have. In The Lathe of Heaven she uses what is functionally magic to reflect worldview (and that's what got me thinking about a Christian economics magic system); in The Dispossessed she's more straightforward, portraying a very believable anarchist society - with all its faults - to demonstrate their worldview. So if you're interested in that sort of thing, you might want to investigate her books. I, for one, intend to read all her books that I can get my hands on without spending TOO much money.


Huh. I'd be interested to hear more about Delshasrae religion.


Yeah, I'm probably reading a bit too much into what he said - there was a lot of other stuff going on in my life at the time that made me hyper-aware of such things.


Spiritual authority. Well, I'd have to do a bit more study to find actual Biblical examples and specific commands about this, but here's an example from my experience that I think is healthy: I know some people who are missionaries in an organization where they have supervisors that they're accountable to. The supervisors keep in contact with the missionaries under them and also occasionally visit, keeping an eye on the spiritual well-being of the missionaries and of their ministry, and advising them. If a supervisor saw somebody under him misbehaving - say, a team leader is falling into some sort of sin - he would speak to him about it and try to help him. If, however, the missionary remained unrepentant, then the supervisor would have the authority to tell him to leave the field until he's dealt with those issues. Your supervisor, then, is a spiritual authority that mostly gives you advice and help in your ministry...but that can also discipline you if you're sinning in your work.

The people I know from this organization love the authority structure in it. They really appreciate all the help and support they get from their supervisors...but more than that, they know that if somebody has an issue with what they're doing in their ministry, they can say, "Look, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong. But if you still think so, you can go to my supervisor - a very wise, experienced believer - and make your case, and if he believes you he can tell me to leave the field." They know that having supervisors - having spiritual authority over them - gives them an extra net of safety against foolishness and sin in their ministry.

Anyways, I find missions fascinating. I would love to find some way to write fantasy stories about missionaries and the mindset they have.

I would read fantasy stories about missionaries. Should that be a sister thread?

Sure! It would be interesting to hear some other people's take on the idea.

Would you like to start it?

I just got thinking about monasteries and how often they appear in fantasy. It would be rather interesting to have an order of monks living in a space station and dedicating their lives to studying the glory of God through the stars. It would be fascinating to portray monastic culture in that sci-fi spin, since monks are usually imagined to be of more humble pastimes than afforded by the usual excitement of space travel.

Ok if you read in scriptures there are different kinds of churches. Those who are lukewarm ...those who are "religous" and those who are not. Let me explain this.

Lukewarm: easily swayed to and from the Lord

Religious: Think they are better than everyone else and are perfect in every spiritual and live life perfectly.

Those who are not:
These people or churches are those open to the Lord are willing to humble themselves and learn. Love others unconditionally and dont judge others. Well try not too anyways. They are the ones on fire for the Lord and share his love with everyone.

I am from America and I know exactly what you all are saying and feeling. Trying to live a perfect life so you can be in good favor and such by others is not the love of the Lord. Putting other Christians down and other people in general for their beliefs and their lifestyle is religousness.... you do not have to be perfect for the Lord to love you. He loves you because he loves you. Nothing and no one can change that. Now im not saying go free and do whatever you want. Thats wrong. Which leads me to Lukewarm. Lukewarm churches spend all their time making themselves look good that they dont live it. They are easily swayed by people to accept things that are not of the Lord. You walk the walk not just talk it. I AM NOT putting down churches or anyone here. But merely answering a question. As for putting this in writings and stories and such.... Medieval times is a great form and example of this especially the crusades in my opinion. Read Acts and the Corinthians. To get more clarity. Honestly I am ashamed of how the American church has become BUT there are those of us who are desperately crying out to the Lord to changes to change our hearts. There are those of us here that love the Lord so much that we show it. Help people like what happened to one of you here when you came and took a trip around America. That was the Lord showing you love through his people! hope this helps on clarity on the subject again I say this with the utmost love and respect!

When i say you I mean you in general not anyone specific

This thread is more involved with how churches are, are not, or can be presented in our writings. The discussion applies mainly to the fictional possibilities of the topic.

So how do we apply the church in our writings? Well in my opinion, you could write about how they helped in a time of need. Or write about persecuted churches offering hope to those who live in areas such as this. ...just a thought.

This is such a cool idea, Rin! I think it sounds really unique too!

Brothers of the cloth tinkering with artificial gravity devices... heading through a narrow corridor with pipes overhead as you hear the chants of "evening" vespers...