So, in a recent discussion with someone in my personal life the question of fantasy creatures was brought up. Said person wanted to know if vampires, werewolves, mythical gods, and the like, were appropriate for Christian fantasy.

I have my own views on the subject, but I would be interested to hear what everyone else on the forum has to say. Are symbolic, demonic figures appropriate for us to portray? If so, why and in what sense? Can they be our main characters, or should they only be used to portray evil?

Hmm... I think it depends on how you portray them. If you use them as "good guys", then there is always the association that people make with that sort of character. However, you could use them to show the complexity of characters in real life. If you did that, you would probably have to be careful not to blur the distinction between good and evil. In general, I make "bad guys" be bad guys. Although, come to think of it, I like to make them (at least partially) repent.

Now, can't main characters portray evil? Generally the antagonist is a main character.

Anything related to the demonic must be used to portray evil. This does not exclude them from being main characters.

In fact, in one of my stories the main villain is a demon who has manifested a physical form, and in another story there are a group of demon possessed people who act as false gods as well as a race of people who have been genetically altered by the demons.

I think the question is not so much if they ought to be portrayed as how they ought to be portrayed. Can we allow any sympathetic treatment (as in The Fall of Lucifer), or is the demonic portrayed as completely evil (as in Middle Earth)?

I think there should be at least one charrie who is "pure evil". His "henchmen" might not always be, but there should be some absolute evil in my opinion

Mythical gods would probably be tricky, if not impossible, to portray in a Christian context. However, vampires and the like could possibly be used to portray redemption, such as a vampire being saved from his vampirism by God.

Any one of those, except mythical gods, should always be shown as evil. Mythical gods could be different, depending on what you use them for. For example the Valar, angelic beings who could be classified as mythical gods.

I don't think I would ever use mythical gods in any of my stories, but I think other creatures can be used, as long as it is done properly.

Well, that would certainly be interesting. Unfortunately, I suppose most people would say it was too much Deux Machina. (Pardon my spelling, English is hard enough, let alone Latin.)

Are you referring to Deus Ex Machina, Neil? Where an author writes himself into a corner and needs a solution?

I'm being quiet for the moment on this post because I want to see what everyone else thinks. I think there have been some very good points made.

Satan is rather a prominent character as far as World History goes. The Bible speaks about lots of demonic activity in revelation.

We need to write about evil, or face the problem of "Johnny ate ice cream and lived happily ever after."

The problem comes when we portray evil as good. As long as that doesn't happen, it is not wrong to write about demonic activity.

Yes. Except that authors often use it willfully. *cough*Eragon*cough*

About mythical gods: I'm not certain what everyone means here. I've used mythical gods as a demonic force, and group of Satan's followers who set themselves up as false powers. But ya'll seem to be aiming at something else.

Well, I'm personally in favor of portraying demonic characters in books...as long as they are portrayed as EVIL. They can even be the main character, and the reader could (possibly, but this would be tricky) even think they were good, but by the end the character should either be redeemed or get what they deserve. At least, that's my opinion.

Do any of us have specific demonic characters written in to our books/stories? Just curious to see how each of us has applied this concept in our writing. In my book I have Srugoz, who is inhabited by Satan himself. There may be other cases of demonic possession too (they don't play in to the book) but I generally don't have Satan himself as a character.



LOL!

eruheran

They are typically portrayed as being demonic, which is why I included them.

While that is true Inesdar, I believe they are typically seen throughout history as being demonic characters. At least that's what I have found in my studies. There are some instances where they are depicted in a different light, but these instances are smaller in percentage to those I have found where they are depicted demonically. This is why I included the Werewolves. No offense to fans of these creatures.

I have Merashath, who is pretty much Satan. He is the main spiritual evil in Menbie, but he was never an angel. He was the elf that caused the fall.

Trust me to jump in on a discussion like this.

I think we need to clarify something about this question:

What do we mean by 'including' something in our stories?

I hear a ton of people saying "I don't put demons in my stories," or "I don't put drinking in my stories," etc.

From what I can tell, they say this because these things are bad.

Which is true.

But that is not a reason to not put them in your book. Far from it. Otherwise, we would not have any lying, stealing, ungodly decisions, anger, or any other sort of sin at all in them. Which would be ridiculous.

Even the Bible has demons, lying, stealing, murders, rape, evil gods, witchcraft, etc. It doesn't always condemn them whenever they occur, either (though of course it condemns them elsewhere).

So the question is not whether they should be in our stories, but how we should present them.

That...

is a big question. So I will not get off-topic and start on the intriguing tangent of presenting sin in a way that does not help others stumble in the presentation.

Instead, I would like to address the original question, framed a bit differently (to help keep things on-topic):

"How should we represent evil incarnate in our stories, when we decide to do so?"

When I say 'evil incarnate' I mean a physical representation of an evil sapient being which does not have an option to repent. Like, a demon.

If it has an option to repent (as in a cursed person, or a witch, or something like that, which is evil, but is not beyond hope), then it doesn't fit this criteria and doesn't apply to the question.

People manifest evil in various forms, some using things from legend, like werewolves, vampires, gods, etc. (Some other people use these things for other uses that are not evil incarnate, and that is fine.) Some people use very unique and new ways to manifest their evil beings (like I do, hehe).

Because these beings have no choice to go back, they of course cannot repent. Because of this, they don't really work as the Main Character of stories. It can be done, of course, but it is generally a bit too hard for more people to handle. Haha.

Of course, they can be used quite easily as a Main Character. The primary antagonist can be evil incarnate very naturally. You can also have the henchman of the MC be evil incarnate, and then betray him in the story. That can be fun. (For the writer, not for the MC, of course.)

As for representing them as good.

They aren't good, so making them be good, is obviously an oxymoron of the highest degree.

But they can do good things, and good can come from what they do. This is true to real-life principles. Satan blesses people, as well as God. They may even help a person do something that is good (even though it isn't what God would prefer they did). God can also use what they intend for evil, for good. He has to do that a lot.

(Please don't get into a debate on free-will and predestination here...)

As for me, I have demons in my stories, and they feature quite prominently in them. In fact, I have three in particular that my stories all seem to gravitate towards and congregate around them. Which makes sense, since they are the three in the High Lord of Darkness's High Command. They always seem to have their fingers in everything.

One of them happens to be present in the Character Introduction thread at the moment, actually.

Sorry I was late in getting back to this thread. I just realized I never stated my own thoughts on this subject. Sorry…

Okay, I’ll start out by saying I have no problem using, or portraying as Sir Emeth wrote, Demonic or evil characters. I think the very fact that the Bible talks about these things is authority enough to use them.

My struggle comes in when we use evil characters and portray them as good. Witches should be witches. I don’t agree with the whole Wizard of Oz controversy of Good Witch vs Bad Witch. There is no “Good Witch” in my opinion.

I think the mythical gods comments are interesting. I don’t want to argue with anyone, but I’m curious why the mythological gods are any different than portraying witches and vampires? I personally wouldn’t use Vampires in my own stories just because they have become such a cultural phenomena and I have no interest in them, but I don’t think (if portrayed appropriately) that they are something that should be excluded from our stories. Lewis used mythical gods in the Chronicles of Narnia. He even gave them a rather neutral role in the stories. Personally I would have used them as a demonic force, but I’d be interested to know why some of you think demonic figures are appropriate in stories, but not mythological gods who, I would posit, were demonic forces themselves.

As to my question that started the thread, I posed it exactly how it was posed to me. I think our antagonists can be main characters, and I believe they often times are, as Neil pointed out. Dunndar is constantly integrated through my story. He may not always be present in a scene, in fact, he often isn’t, but his presence is always an undercurrent. There are always reminders that Dunndar is an evil force orchestrating events negatively.

I used the how vs should argument when discussing this subject with the acquaintance who asked me if my writing genre was appropriate as a Christian. I agree with the rest of you, how we portray these characters is the real question, not should we.

Interesting discussion guys.

I was thinking along the same lines. Good thoughts, Sir Emeth and Airianna.

I just don't want to mess with them, myself. I don't have a problem with anyone using them in a story, and some of my characters may even believe in gods. But I just don't really want to write a bunch about them. I don't even know my reason for that.
Same reason I've never used vampires or witches... they just aren't something I want to write about or are interested in at the moment. If I come up with a story idea in which I would need to use one of them as a bad guy, that's fine, I will. But it isn't really something I use much.

I can understand that. I don't use the mythical gods myself, or Vampires for that matter. I don't necessarily have a problem with them (as long as they are portrayed correctly) I just don't have a use for them. That makes sense to me Arias. Thanks for expounding.

So your non-use of such things is more like your non-use of fantasy cybernetics. You... just don't have them.

Was that question directed at me or Arias?

I don't use vampires or mythical gods either. I don't have a place or need for them. I honestly hadn't really considered it fully before this topic.

If you could call it a question, both. Haha.

So much for Jay always being serious.

The difference between mythical gods and mythical humanoid creatures is that mythical gods demand worship. I'm not against using mythical gods in fiction as long as they are bad and not representitive of a polytheistic worldview. Mythical humanoid creatures, on the other hand, can theoretically be subject to the same moral choices as humans.

So basically your argument is the same as mine? You don't have a problem using them so long as they are used appropriately?

Yes. I am only against using 'good' mythical gods due to the polytheistic implications.

Okay, I think that's fair.

Well, I'll throw in my oar for nature gods since I was one of the first to support them. And please note that this applies to "a" world of mine (not sure which, possible Enderion but probably not) and not to everyone elses...just my views on the subject.

Well, in my opinion, the various Naiads, Draiads, and Flai'ads, and other 'mythical gods' I have in my world are only termed so for lack of a better, more appropriate, word. In actuality, they're guardians of the various elements and the world itself. Naiads are guardians of the river, the lakes, the streams, the bubbling brooks. The draiads are the guardians of the trees, the majestic oaks, the stately beeches, down to the smallest pine tree. And then, the Flai'ads, of course (are made up), are guardians of magic; the smallest spell, the most potent potion, and the most powerful whispered word. That's what they do.

Now, being guardians of these forces (and there may be more races of guardians, but I haven't thought of any yet), they are obviously very closely interconnected with these forces. Draiads are closely connected with trees, not to the extent of C.S. Lewis' which actually were the trees, but they have a close communion with the trees. And so on and so forth for the other races.

Now, obviously these nature-like spirits are going to be misconceived by the local inhabitants, especially if they're ignorant or uneducated. Thus, the term 'gods'. But gods they aren't. Rather, they're almost more like 'nature angels' (Though many, many people could misinterpret that name) that God appointed to protect the creation.

The main reason these aren't in a world of mine yet is because they're easily misunderstood...as this discussion has evidenced. Also, because the only world of mine developed is Enderion, which lacks magic...and that would leave the Flai'ads out in the cold. Plus, all of these races are at least partly magical, I would think.

(Bit off topic...anyone have any ideas for any more? The stone guardians; the Petriads? Or maybe the Anemaiads; the wind guardians?)

eruheran

It sounds fine in your case, Eruheran. You're making the distinction that they are not gods, even if they may appear to be because they have certain powers. My concern is with literal gods.

I think your system, Eruheran, is very similar to J.R.R. Tolkien's. (Not in a borrowing way, but in a good way.)

I also have a similar system, having angelic beings 'ruling' over various elements and parts of Ithelak as gods (little g). Only the demonic ones, who vie for control, seek worship, however.

Just like Ulmo rejected worship (if I remember right).

Exactly. If one were to seek worship, they'd be defeating their purpose for being alive. Needless to say, there are 'evil' ones out there, or demonic if you prefer.

Who is Ulmo?

eruheran

The Maia of the under-sea in Middle Earth. One of the strongest of the Valar. He met Tuor Turambar.

I really like your system. I like the Petriads more.

I would agree with eruheran on most points. Angelic beings can often misconceived as gods. Some even think that polytheism was the worship of demons, not just stone or wood statues. And demons are fallen angels.