I'm pretty new to this site so first off I would like to say howdy. I myself am an aspiring minister as well as an aspiring graphic novelist (comic books for those who might think something else) and am currently working on a fantasy world to write in (I have a modern fantasy world I write most of my fiction in, and a spiritual sci-fi I play with, as well as a superhero universe I dabble in) but I kinda want a more traditional fantasy world to build RPG scenarios in. I know as Christians we serve the one true God and NO OTHER so when I refer to lesser gods I don't refer to some host of pantheon beings who created the universe but rather living breathing forces of nature which serve a Higher all powerful God.

Four gods specifically who serve their all powerful father God. Each with an allegorical meaning and natural purpose. The five I have in mind are as follows.

Sol- A being who serves as the source of all physical light and Lord of the skies. He is short tempered but generous, he likes to place hardships on men in order to watch them overcome and become stronger for it. A reminder that we are all less than God and should respect his power and not take his generosity for granted. He is also a reminder that all our trials are set down before us in order to give us an opportunity to grow.

Luna- A being who serves as the commander of the seas, and a source of light in the darkness. Luna seems a bit loopy but often knows things others do not and acts upon them in unpredictable ways. She reflects sun light upon the earth with the moon at night so that people do not stumble and fall in the meager light her brother provides man. She represents that even in the Darkness, God does not abandon us as well as provides a shining (Pun not intended) example for mankind in showing us how to be like the moon and shine God's light upon the world even in the darkness. She also represents the mysterious and vast nature of God's plan.

Terra- A being who protects and nurtures all life. She does not distinct man from beast except that man is responsible for caring for the beasts and plants of the land and she often holds men to this with earthquakes and eruptions. She represents God's command over nature and willingness to allow us to suffer the consequences for disrespecting HIS CREATION. Terra also represents the bounty we will receive from respecting God and his creations fulfilling our duties as stewards of the earth.

I have not named the fourth and most important of the four their leader... Well he's pretty much Jesus. He is the youngest deity though prophesied by his sister Luna at her own birth and by many other prophets he is the god of redemption and salvation as well as spirits and the afterlife. Representing God's victory over evil and death, and serving as a reminder that God keeps God's promises. I have yet to name him due to a fear that the name will not do him justice.

Before you say anything, remember Lewis mentioned and even used gods in Narnia. As well as that, well, this is fantasy. I would like suggestions and comments.

Is this OK to do?
Could you suggest a better term than gods?
Any other ways I should edit this idea or any other beings or allegorical aspects that may be used?

Hi DawnBringer... and welcome, as I haven't met you yet.

I'm not actually going to say anything about whether it's right/wrong... I'm going to leave more experienced fantasy writers to give you their thoughts on that. But as a not-fantasy-writer but very-much-fantasy-reader, I'd like to give you my perspective on the appearance of this idea.

If I get what you're saying, the basic concept here is that there is one God in your world, and He created these lesser 'god' beings who are nature, and the sources of different qualities and values; Sol, Luna, Terra, and Jesus.

It's an interesting idea, and without really analyzing it, two things stick out in my mind.

The main one is that you seem to be placing Jesus on a par with the other 'gods'... making Him less than God when He is God, even though you've placed Him as leader of the three lesser gods. I'd be really careful of this, because He is God in every sense of the word, equal with the Father, existing before the creation of the world.

Second thing that struck me is that both by using the word 'god' and using these lesser gods as the 'sources' of different qualities and as Nature itself... you could be at risk of confusing a portrayal of Christianity with elements of ancient religions etc. Let me explain:

The idea of having them each represent an attribute of the one true God reminds me of the religion of ancient Egypt. Each ancient Egyptian god took care of a different aspect of life or was a different aspect of nature, and G.A Henty puts forth in his historical fiction the idea that some of the Egyptians might have actually worshiped God through worshiping His attributes in these figure-head gods, which I find unacceptable. Not saying that you're doing this, but ideas like this can easily occur to the reader.

Second thing... you know how you were saying that the gods are the living, breathing, forces of nature? In this you've given non-living matter personality... and here is the danger of accidentally and indirectly affirming that age-old idea of 'Mother Nature'. The idea that nature is actually a personality with some vague form of antiquated and unconscious intelligence. I've actually heard of one atheist explaining the design apparent in creation this way. Anyway, it can also have patheistic connotations, so I'd be careful with this.

And your reference to C S Lewis... he was an awesome writer. But there are some things that I don't appreciate in his writing. One is his use of pagan ideas in a book portraying Christianity. If you see what I'm saying, it can get messy and confusing very easily, and portray a false picture of Christianity to those who don't know Biblical doctrine so well.

I think... perhaps change the name of these 'gods'.... maybe even make them archangels in charge of certain aspects of creation... I don't know. But it seems to me that you're kind of making these gods too 'big'... there's not enough distinction between them and God.

Hope you find this helpful. The others are far more experienced in tackling and using concepts and ideas such as these so I bet they'll have some awesome suggestions. But this is how it appears to me just as reader, at present.

By the way, in the fantasy I've written, I've always been loathe to name Jesus, for the same reason. What I found helpful was using different variation of His name. Remember that Christ is also Immanuel (God with us). Once I used a shortened variation... Manuel. So that's another idea.

First things first - welcome, DawnBringer! Have a cupcake while you read through all these long posts we're leaving on your thread.

You have an extremely interesting concept here. I've never heard of anything quite like it. Cassandra had a lot of wonderful points for you, some of which I will second and add upon in my post.

As for if it is "okay" to do this - ultimately that's a question only you can answer. Each writer has different beliefs about what is acceptable in a fantasy world. You need to answer to God and to God only for your work, so be sure to take it up with Him. Getting outside opinions is very helpful, but remember that you need to be comfortable with your own theology by being right with God.

As for my personal opinion... I think the concept has potential, but I would refine the expression and application of it to conform more to Biblical theology.

First, I agree with Cassandra that I personally would not put Jesus (or his counterpart) on the same level with anything but God. Jesus is fully God, and while He appeared on earth in man's form, He is God and only God. He is not an angel, or a spirit, or a subordinate of God - He is God and is above all else. Therefore, if you're going to portray Jesus or the Holy Spirit, or have God descend to earth in another form like Jesus did, I think you need to make it clear that He is God and above all these other gods.

Second, I don't think I would call them "gods." I actually thought of the archangel idea, and then Cassandra confirmed my suspicions. I think you could make this concept work if you had these various beings be spirits or angels rather than deity. They are servants of God, not gods themselves. (Spirits would be my first word choice.) I also agree with Cassandra that it might be better to have these spirits control the elements rather than be the elements, to avoid suggesting that the earth has a spirit. I think you could work it both ways, but I would stress caution.

Now some questions of my own for you... How much free will do these spirits have over the elements? Do they have to seek God for "permission" before tempting man (like the Devil sought God's permission before attacking Job), or do they act on their own wisdom? How much personality do they have? Are they fallen? Can they "sin" or make mistakes?

Ohh, kind of like the Vanyar/Maiar in the Silmarillion?

(if you haven't read it, you might want to - Tolkien handled the idea very well.)

Thank you for your input I have prayed about it and considered it on my own and I think that I may have been able to better fix this to what it needs to be.

First off I need to clarify a couple of things. Originally I was going to use a host of seven saints, but I felt that this left little room for a Jesus like figure so I tried something a bit higher up. As you have pointed out clearly, a fact which I was unable to fully convey in my first post, is that Jesus and God are one and I can clearly see that this will not work as I had originally intended. When I originally wrote - well, he's Jesus or whatever - I said I had assumed that you would include that aspect as well as all other aspects of the Christ within his description. I should have been more clear. As far as him being equal to the other three I believed that him being the physical manifestation of God ruling over them would represent God's sovereignty over nature. Again, I apologize for not being very informative here as I was half asleep.

So the problem with the Christ figure was mostly a misunderstanding, though I can see the problem in using the same terminology for him as the other three. I was in the first place uncomfortable with the terminology 'god' considering its implications. This is why I asked that someone could give me a better name for them. Sadly I can't use the term spirits due to the fact that that is too broad a definition in a world with good spirits Deva and evil spirits Daemon. Of course you could not have known this since I in my vast stupidity have forgotten to inform you of such. I have considered the term 'great spirit' but The Great Spirit is a term used to describe God by the Wolv'an and Alliance. Archangel is a pretty good term though so it's probably the only one that will make the cut.

This is the hierarchy I'm looking at:

God
The Christ figure-lesser than God only in that he is the physical manifestation of God.
The three Archangels maybe Arch-spirits or Arch-Deva?
Lesser Spirit- Deva, Daemon

Another that includes God, the saints, and men:

God and the Christ figure
The seven Saints
Men and the other three races.

As far as their free will, these 'entities' as I will call them, for now are spiritual beings. To disobey God's will would be to completely cut themselves off and thus cut their very existence short unless they were willing to stoop down like demon (Daemon in this world) and become spiritual parasites in order to exist. This is how I will most likely create a devil figure. I will also make them beings with power over nature rather than beings that embody nature as you have instructed if only to avoid pagan symbolism.

Also here are some domains to clarify more about the three and the one.

Sol- Sun, Sky, Judgment, Faith
Luna- Moon, Sea, Mystery, Hope
Tarra- Earth, Life, Generosity, Love

I'm still up for suggestions but I'm pretty much done here I think. I am working on an entire world for a Christian table top gaming scenario meant to be used in the place of more pagan and less original world like Grey Hawk, Eberron, and The Forgotten Realms (I admit to liking that last one but it's not near as bad as the others). It is also meant to be as preachy or just for fun as you like and to hopefully one day have its own site where people can get all its supplement material for free for ministry or just for fun. If anyone is interested in helping or fond of table top gaming I would like help creating this world as well as translating it and its contents into popular systems like D and D, GURPS, and D20. Be on the look out for other threads pertaining to Ska'Lah'Seh (Sky, Land, and Sea) I think I'm going to start a thread on this world's Magic tomorrow and will continue to check this thread until it is finished.

That was what I was going to say.

Welcome! I love the idea of making it a tabletop RPG, because those are awesome.

About the topic itself, there's not much I tell you, because, as mentioned, it's between you and God. I have seen what you're thinking of done before, and done well, but it could also be done poorly.

You've got a lot of awesome material here. I really admire you for taking on such a large and fun project as an RPG game. Looking forward to more of your development threads!

I think what you have here is very workable. My only nitpick would be to stress caution when calling Jesus, manifested as man, as "less" than God. While He took on a weak human form, He still had all His deity and power. He just chose not to use it except in special situations.

Question:

Are these "deities" worshiped, or merely admired and respected? Because if they aren't worshiped, then they aren't really gods, just very powerful beings.

That's a question; good point, and NO, they are not worshiped. In fact, they are probably just as likely to unleash their respective natural disasters on anyone who attempts to worship them. They are, however, revered and respected with many shrines devoted in part to them like some churches are devoted to Saints and Angels.

This is yet another reason to keep the Christ figure out of their little clique.

Also, I have a post in the magic section about the magic in Ska'Lah'Seh. Here's a link. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5041

Okay, I like that idea... Punishment for worshiping nature comes in the form of a natural disaster. That's neat! Though, I would be careful not to give the angels too much personality, lest people associate that personality with the elements and are further encouraged to worship them. Though again, if you want to have false religions in your world for realism, that would be a logical one!

Well the only false religion in the world so far is the 2001 "gods" of the pantheon, but they're pretty much bad guys. Most the other religions are just variants of the true faith. Some believe in 8 saints instead of 7, they don't eat meat, they cremate their dead, etc. But most are the same religion. The beast races tend to revere the 3 archangels over the 7 saints while humans tend to revere the saints more. Speaking of races, I have started a new race thread.

On another note you mentioned not giving them too much personality? If you mean separation from God that shouldn't be a problem considering this. Deva (Angels) are created by God with a purpose; they ARE this purpose, nothing more. If they either fail, abandon, or stray from that purpose they stop existing because they ARE their purpose handed down to them by God. The Archangels, as we are calling them now, are just extremely powerful Deva with very high purposes. So what individuality they have is nothing more or less than their purpose. Do they think? Yes, but only in a "narrow stream" for lack of a better word. Do they have feelings? Yes, they are alive, and they, like all Deva, need emotions and reason to fulfill their duties.

On that note I might as well explain where Daemon (Demons) come from. Daemon are Deva who strayed from their role and rebelled against God and his creation (nature). Rather than stop existing, Daemon become supernatural parasites devouring their victims, Quintessence (Spirit, Existence), so that they may continue clinging to existence. If you need more info on quintessence and Daemon please refer to my Magic in Ska'Lah'Seh post in the magic section of the forums.

This will also be the origin of Ska'Lah'Seh's Devil figure, whom I have not named yet (most likely Mammon?). He/She will have been a Greater spirit, most likely associated with some celestial body that no longer exists, who fell from grace and rebelled (Like Satan) and now feeds off of every evil act committed by man. Ooh! I was just struck with inspiration! It has no name but is simply referred to as Mammon (because of its insatiable hunger). It was once tasked with the protection of another Star, but it became jealous of those who live under it. It forgot what it was in its envy and had the star devour that world (AKA turned it into a black hole). Does that sound good?

Thank you for pointing this out; it really could have been bad if someone had misread this when I finally get the ball rolling on this. I may begin another post that more accurately explains the theology of this world and the changes that you guys helped me make (Because this one only leaves room for the three Greater Deva and we kinda got past the original question). Also, I have read the moderators' post about the theology forum, so I was wondering if this should go somewhere else?

Haven't had time to read your last thread in full, Dawn, but I've skimmed over the posts and like how this is progressing.

Hi DawnBringer! Welcome to HW! My name is Alina (or Bethany if you prefer) I'm a PK, so my dad is a Pastor as well

Well, I'm not going to tell you whether or not you should use this idea or whether it is wrong or right, because that's not my place. You should be the one to decide that because it's your book.

It is a neat idea.

However, I have one major issue with the gods you have made-up. Jesus. You placed God (Seeing as The Father [God] Son [Jesus] and Holy Spirit are one.) and Jesus as two totally different beings by making Jesus a lesser god. I don't think that is right. What do you think about making a different lesser god for your fifth lesser god?

I would suggest not using the term "lesser gods" for your five lesser gods. I think it portrays a very different thing then what you wanted it to portray.

How about something like "Guardians Of The Earth" or "High Servants Of God"?

Just my random thoughts on the matter. very cool idea, though! Good luck with whatever you choose to do!

God bless,
Alina

Hey DawnBringer!

I had a question about the section above. You said that all of the other religions besides the 2001 "gods" are basically the same, people just do different things inside of the religion. I believe another already mentioned this, but this could seem like there are multiple "roads" to get to the same destination. Like the pyramid idea that all religions lead to heaven. Because of this, I'm not sure if it fully portrays what you're wanting it to communicate. I just wanted to give you a thought there so you can keep an eye out for it.



I like this idea. It reminds me of what I was thinking of doing for my fantasy story before I decided to not write it. But that's another story. This seems pretty sound, and I like it a lot.



Another great place to develop these characters would be in the Peoples, Races, and Tribes area of the forum. There you can go much more in depth on the origin of the Daemon. I'd love to help you develop them further!



This sounds really interesting. I'd love to see you continue to develop this! It's a really intriguing idea. I haven't looked at it this way before.



Actually, I think you're good. This seems like an appropriate thread for this area. One thing you may want to do is work on posting the development things in Peoples, Races, and Tribes and then direct people over here to talk about the theological side to the characters, and you can point people here to Peoples, Races, and Tribes to show them the background and development of the characters.

But I'd say go ahead and keep this thread here as it still is very much on the theology side of your world.

Thank you! I would be really glad to take you up on that offer to help me develop the daemon. I really haven't thought about them more than that they're just evil spirits. Oh, I am still working on mammon as well. I have like the fall story in the works for mammon and the other daemons.

Awesome! Send me the link as soon as you create it!

Sorry I haven't been on in a couple days. I was wondering where I could post an overall post for Ska'Lah'Seh you know as a whole?

Also I'm not getting any feedback on my other two threads, Beast Men of Ska'Lah'Seh and magic In Ska'Lah'Seh. I could really use some feedback especially from the magic one as I'm trying to build something big here and need to get as many opinions as possible.

Hey DawnBringer!

I wanted to check in and see how things are going! I didn't notice any thread about the Daemons yet. Also, about the feedback on your other threads, you might want to ask Milly Manderly for some feedback. She's in charge of those threads. You might could PM a few people to ask for specific feedback, too. We all love helping.

Also, posting a thread for Ska'Lah'Seh in general (sorry for not getting to you on this sooner) might be in Chronicles where you can talk about this history of your world in general.

I hope this helped!

Check out Deva and daemons for more info on the spirits of Sk'Lah'Seh

Awesome! I'll take a look and comment soon.

Ah my first thread just wanted to pop by for a shameless and pointless bump.

I have never wanted to dabble in this, because I think it gets awfully tricky and can mirror cults within our society, but, Lewis did this, and I think it's worth looking at from his perspective.

Unless of course we are talking about false gods that people worship, and a ladder system would work well for that.

Lewis did that? Where? *wants to know what his favorite fantasy author did with this sort of thing*

The river god? You don't remember him? He was called the river god. A lesser god.

Yep. And Bacchus (Prince Caspian) was a Greek god, as, I think, were a few others.

Oh, yes! But I thought of him as a sort of creature...called a ___god as what he was, not in the same sense that God is God, or that other false gods are gods, or that the lesser god-like people in Tolkien's works were god-like. I get you now, though.

Right. It depends on how you look at it. But he did use gods from mythology.

*nods*

It could be argued that Lewis did this in his Space Trilogy as well...

Oh absolutely! I haven't read them, but I've heard a good bit that has me concerned. But, haven't read it, so can't say for sure.

Haven't read them either, but that's interesting. Yet another reason to read them.

I've read the first two, and though what you are referring to as gods may only be present in the last book, I believe what you mean was in the first two. However I did not see them as gods, merely powerful angels that God put in great authority. I don't think he ever even called them gods, though they are based off of the gods of Rome in a way. He put it more like the gods of Rome were based off of them

Yes, I was referring to the first two. And yeah, they're not really gods, but seem to act like lesser gods in their own realm...

Yes, but they stopped them from worship, and they have never ruled over our world.

Obviously in fantasy you can change things, my struggle is always "I don't want to tamper with things that could very easily be misconstrued by others", so I'm very careful in those aspects. Doesn't mean you can't do it well or carefully, my choice is just not to.