I'll try to keep myself on topic, but I'm not making any promises.

Over in the dark is rising sequence thread under Reviews, Amanda (?) mentioned that on of the things she didn't like about the book was that the church was considered neutral ground, rather than ground for the forces of Light. In my mind this is for one of two reasons:
Reason one: the power of the church is ineffectual.
Reason Two: The power of the church supersedes both the powers of Light and the powers of Dark.

Let's look at reason one. I didn't like the book, and that particular scene just reinforces my reason. The power of the church is ineffectual. So either it's neutral ground out of respect for the beliefs of Ordinary People or there's just enough power there to keep it neutral, not to take sides. The church is a myth, a fairy tale, with little or no actual power. Bad.

Reason Two: The power of the church supersedes the powers of both light and dark. In other words, what I was getting from the book, is that the power of "Light" and "Dark" were really the same thing, used for different purposes, like white and black magic. (I don't hold with either.) The church is neutral ground because both are ineffective against real power.

So this leads me to my most interesting theory about the endless battle between good and evil. My dad doesn't like the battle of 'good and evil' because he points out that movies and books and all draw lines where there are none. Men are not either 'good' or 'evil' they are a mix of both. You can do 'good' while intending to do 'evil', you can have good intentions that are never fulfilled, and even if you are 'good' that doesn't count for anything. It's still ineffectual.

Good and Evil is a great allegory for a fantasy novels where lines are drawn that can't otherwise be defined. But what about a higher power? What about the creator of both good and evil? The power that supersedes both?

Or perhaps a third reason is because it's just a building. Granted, I've heard all kinds of stories of evil staying out of churches...and then all kinds of stories of evil destroying them... but still, 'the church' isn't a building, it's a group of people, those who follow Christ.

Anyhow, that isn't the point.

Yes, I get annoyed at secular books about good vs. evil because they don't realize that Satan isn't God's equal in power. (I think the more correct view is that the archangel Michael is considered Satan's opposite equal, but my education on angelology was kind of scanty) Ditto for the Force and other 'energy fields' and whatnot.

The problem is, if you know that God wins, then where's the conflict and tension?

That is the difficulty that a good writer must overcome.

I think Lord of the Rings handled it fairly well, and the Silmarillion more so.

This is a very interesting point. I am also annoyed with the "Good vs. Evil" outlook in many fantasy stories. Especially when many times the characters can't always help if they are good or evil. (Example: Elves and Orcs. One is good, one is evil. No redemption process (as far as I know) could transform an Orc into an Elf, thus making it "good.")


I believe that the hope of eternity can overcome conflict and tension, yes. But is there not conflict and tension in the world anyway? That is the problem with a fallen world. We may have hope, but others do not, and we are not to give in. This is the strife that causes tension. I am not saying that it's all the "sinner's" fault. We all still have a human nature, and thus we cannot attain perfection. But I do think that the only time that conflict and tension will not be present is in the presence of God. We only have hope of that now.

And yes, that spiel did turn toward our own life on earth, so it could be different in our different "worlds." But if we are to represent the Christian life in our different worlds, then I believe this is all relevant.

Ah, but there are bad elves. They simply are immune to some of the temptations that we humans have because of our more finite lifespan. And orcs are, well, orcs. They're fairytale goblins. They're not considered sentient last I checked. In Tolkien's works, of course. (distinctly Christian worldview)

Not to sound argumentative... I just have worked through elves and orcs in my brain a lot.


I didn't say there wasn't conflict and tension. I just said it was hard for a writer to do.

There are a couple of sources of conflict and tension.

(1) good and evil really do struggle in this world. However, it is not so much in the physical as it is in the spiritual: in the hearts of the people. That battle is more even. God doesn't always 'win' because He gave us free choice... allowing a person to reject Him ('lose')

Many fantasies forget this. I don't really care for those kinds of fantasies because they're kind of empty. I do like the big-scale conflict, don't get me wrong. But if it's without the spiritual conflict, the character conflict...

This is why I don't mind Star Wars even though the Force is total bunk. The struggle is really over Luke's soul - it ultimately is his choice to do good or evil, which would be true if the story had a completely Christian worldview anyway!

(2) In the physical world, while God is in control of everything, sometimes evil appears to win. Which is where hope comes in.

It's not an overly good place to leave characters, though.

I will feel very cheated in a story if everything ends very depressingly and has 'aww, it's okay, they died and went to heaven' tacked on.

Justice still needs to be shown in a story. A story is not all real. It's your view of reality, and it needs to be crafted in a very readable fashion.

(3) In writing, there are places for both kinds of stories. I don't like to slam either kind.

Hope that clears up my viewpoint!

Yes, that does clear it up! And I agree with your statements.

If the church were just a building, then it wouldn't be neutral ground. It would be fair game, like any other building. We are, for the moment, supposed to accept the power of the actual church building, just as though this were still the fifteenth century.

Now I'm feeling like an idiot because I've lost my train of thought... All I can think of is the battle from the end of Elfstones of Shannara and I can't figure what on earth that has to do with anything... well, let's try this.

Someone mentioned there's not a lot of suspense when you know that God is in control. But what if you had a story where good and evil where just made up sides chosen by forces that were really the same? You had the 'light' and you have the 'dark' but they're both ignoring the Truth? Because that's the feeling I get from a lot of non-Christian fantasy.

There was another thing... but I'm going to stop while I'm still making a little bit of sense.

Fair enough, Janin.

(I wonder why the evil magic/etc couldn't get in, though, while they could use their 'good magic' while inside; as if it wasn't as neutral as the characters made it sound.)

Yes. I haven't read a lot of secular fantasy fiction (due to magic content) but I would expect that kind of thing.

The secular mind cannot comprehend good and evil the way we do, because they don't acknowledge a higher power that determines good and evil.

The Dark is Rising suffers from this problem; they never discuss good and evil.

However, I should put in that I don't see a reason to go into a philosophical talk of what is good and what is evil every single fantasy book. I personally didn't notice the lack of discussion on the topic because I take good and evil for granted.

Also, a book that is not Christian but has Christian influences (a good example being Star Wars; Lucas apparently grew up in a Protestant home or something like that, but obviously got very confused) can work very well with 'what is good' and 'what is evil' because the writer somewhat understood the concept. (for example, Lucas draws the line very clearly with the Force that certain emotions are 'good' and certain emotions are 'bad'; he leaves the acceptance of that to our own internal moral code written in our hearts by God. However, Lucas missed the mark, not understanding that emotions don't matter so much, it's the motives. I have a particular annoyance with 'good is when you are at peace'...good is anything but peace some days, haha... But anyhow...this is not the place to discuss the theology of Star Wars. ;D)

So yes, many secular fantasy works have issues of not defining the reason for good and evil (good is of God, and evil is what does not measure up. Evil is corrupted good, et cetera.)

And if anyone wants to read more about philosophy, I recommend reading Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis - a very good book.


Arghh.... please re-read, Janin, I didn't say there WASN'T any tension/conflict, I just said that it's different.

Sorry, I know you were posting late at night for you.

I would disagree. Man is evil. He cannot do good without God. When he does do good it is for alternative reasons or because God uses his evil deeds for good.



We don't choose God, He chooses us.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I just thought I might point that out.

Griffin, there is where it depends n your personal beliefs.

My personal beliefs on the subjects:

I believe that while God chooses us, yes, we also have to choose Him. (a combination of free-will and predestination)

I also believe that men are fallen, not evil. God can't create evil. But humans have the sin nature from Adam - a tendency to choose wrong over right. (which, notably, doesn't remove the ability to choose right. Most people just don't. There have been non-Christians who've done some pretty good stuff, but it doesn't make them Christians.)


But anyhow I don't see a problem with other people having different viewpoints on the matter - not an essential.

I don't agree with freewill any more than agree with fate. And isn't it beside the point for this discussion?

By 'good' I mean the world's version of good. Hence the quotes. I know that annoys some people, but it works. I'm not talking about good as in God is Good, but as in good works. The "I don't steal, I don't cheat, I haven't killed anyone, therefore I'm good" kind of good. Which is where I get the idea of good also having it's ulterior motives. Good is not righteous, any more than Evil is. Like white magic. See?

It's like... like, in the Prince of Yen, after Janin dies, when King Rynaud is threatening to hang both Prince Derek and Prince Herene for his death. Herene tried to kill Janin, he was a traitor to his country, he attempted to kill Derek, he's clearly the 'bad' guy. So when he hears his sentence he says nothing. Derek protests. Because Derek was an innocent victim! He's the guy who was almost killed, who got separated from his wife and country, who was Janin's 'friend', all against his will! Why should he be held responsible? But despite being the 'good' guy, Derek is just as guilty. One was good, and one was evil, but neither were right.

I will concede that it is a personal opinion.


Okay, misunderstood you. I think I see what you are saying now. Sorry if I got off topic.

Haha... yeah, I got off-topic too.

On good and evil:

"good" -- I see what you mean. Perhaps the word is 'positive' - a positive act that doesn't break any law.

Okay, so here we delve into doing the right thing for the right reason. and what happens when the 'right thing' is a Bad Deed. (for example, is war ever Good?)

Interestingly, we already discussed this on CF.

What were they getting in trouble for? I don't remember... (Derek and Herene)

King Rynaud (Janin's father) held them both responsible for his death. Herene because he killed him (obviously) Derek because he put Janin in a position where he was willing to commit suicide to save his life. He said if Derek had been a true friend he would have resigned himself to his fate, and not blamed Janin for not finding a way to return him.

Okay, obviously I haven't seen the entire story. lol Because that still seems to be missing something. (I don't remember how Janin died, how his death allowed Derek to go back home, or whatever it was...)

It's... complicated. One day I shall finish writing it and you shall know all.

Ooh, sounds good, except I haven't heard the whole story either, so I'm not sure what Derek is getting blamed for.

Thanks. It's on my list of things to finish. I've actually made good progress, and I'll get back to it eventually. At which point, I'll be sure all of ye on HW know about it.