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| Looking for historical figures https://archive.holyworlds.org/viewtopic.php?f=193&t=9664 |
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| Author: | BarelyAPrincess [ December 1st, 2016, 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Looking for historical figures |
Hello fellow Holy World-ers. So I figured it was finally time I got more involved in this community. I regret I haven't done this sooner. So much like my wife, I've also caught the writers bug. Never thought I would be writing three fictions at the same time. One such work I'm writing is about a royal family member who is born into a unique situation requiring the queen to conceal their true gender from the king and the kingdom. I'm envisioning this story taking place between the 15th and 19th centuries in either Russia, Germany, France, Sweden, Norway, etc. So saying that, I'm looking for real life examples of people who might have lived similar situations, be it royalty or nobility. One such person is Chevalier d'Éon, who was employed by King Louis XV as a spy. He was sent on a secret mission to meet with Empress Elizabeth of Russia. In the course of this mission, d'Éon was disguised as the lady Lea de Beaumont, and served as a maid of honour to the Empress. But I digress. Anyways, I'm having difficulty finding similar people through Google. So suggestions would be awesome. I would like to start with similar figures to Chevalier but I'd be open to also researching secret heirs. Thanks! |
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| Author: | The Bard [ December 2nd, 2016, 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for historical figures |
I can't think of any "real" instances of royalty doing this. (If they did I don't think we'd hear about it.) There are many cases of women becoming men in order to serve in the military. Then there is Marina the Monk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_the_Monk And also Chevalier d'eon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d%27%C3%89on |
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| Author: | Mistress Kidh [ December 5th, 2016, 5:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for historical figures |
I can't tell from your post whether you're looking for instances of a woman dressing as a man, or a man dressing as a woman. Do you want both? |
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| Author: | Lady Sparks [ December 6th, 2016, 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for historical figures |
If it's fiction, why not take any historical figure you like and just make them the opposite gender in disguise? Or specific ones that were more feminine/masculine/androgynous - like Pharaoh Akhenaton &/or Tutankhamun, Liu Rushi, Gippius, etc. |
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| Author: | BarelyAPrincess [ December 6th, 2016, 9:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for historical figures |
Yes, I would hope to get both examples (if they exist) and it doesn't necessarily matter if they where royalty or not. I'm quite familiar hearing stories of women who throughout history dressed as men to serve in wars. One notable woman fought in the Civil War. She got shot in the leg and removed the lodged bullet herself because she feared the army doctor would discover her true gender. I don't want to give too much away just yet because I intend for my story to be an unconventional fairytale. But I will say, after the murder of a king's firstborn son, the king vows to sacrifice any further sons in hopes it will end a nearly 1000-year family curse. Knowing this, the queen disguises his next born son as a girl. So historical people or even other fictional characters trying to escape curses or other bad situations by disguising who they really are would probably be more what I'm looking for. Of course people who were spies or undercover by crossdressing as their opposite gender would be most interesting. For those who are anime fans, I know a few different animes have braved a couple stories like this too. So animes are also welcomed. THANKS PEOPLE |
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| Author: | Mistress Kidh [ December 8th, 2016, 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for historical figures |
François Timoléon was dressed by his mother as a girl from birth. There is a memoir you could read, but it's in French. https://archive.org/details/memoiresdelabb00choi Quote from this article: "The early seventeenth century was a time of both political and social chaos in Europe. In 1602 "the French parliament condemned an hermaphrodite to death because he made use of the sex which he had abjured", wrote Eugene de Savitsch "Hermaphrodites were forbidden to be judges, advocates and university rectors." Fortunately, by mid century such attitudes had softened a great deal, and many even had reversed in France. Otherwise, the likes of Francois Timoleon de Choisy (1644 - 1724) would never have been able to 'come-out' as he did. Better known as the Abbe de Choisy, due to his appointment to the abbacy of St. Seine, he was a member of a very influential family at court, and because of this he may have gotten away with much more than others of lesser station in society. Choisy's life has been well documented by others, as well as his own very detailed memoirs. By all accounts he was the classic transvestite, never attempting to disguise his biological sex, but frequently going about in public in full female attire and expressing a deep regret for not been born a girl. Choisy's mother dressed him as a girl until he reached eighteen when he began appearing in public as a man. At least one historian has suggested a political motive behind his cross-dressing: he was deliberately feminised so as never to present a threat to King Louis XIVs throne. Be that as it may, Choisy never seems to have had any political ambitions and seems to have been quite contented with his public outings at the opera, the theatre, balls and other events dressed in the most lavish of female fashions. Choisy was often visited by young women in his chambers. His fascination with female accoutrements made him something of an expert on women's fashions and prominent society matrons brought their daughters to Choisy for advice. According to his own memoirs he took these young maids to bed before their mother's eyes, but did no more than fondle and kiss them. He did, however, manage to get one woman pregnant, a well known actress called Roselie, whom Choisy enjoyed dressing up as a man, and the pair of them strolling about the streets of Paris with she as the husband and he as her wife. As Choisy aged he continued to dress as a woman less and less and spent his final years reminiscing on his youth when he was admired by fashionable society as the prettiest girl in town." King Henry III cross-dressed, but I don't think there was a major reason. Edward Hyde was accused of cross-dressing also. |
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| Author: | Lady Sparks [ December 9th, 2016, 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for historical figures |
If we're talking anime... Off the top of my head I can think of several manga - There's a main character in Fruits Basket (mostly the manga) who is raised as a boy. W Juliet (he has to graduate as a girl in order to prove to his father he can be an actor and not take over the family business). Ouran High School Host Club (she pretends to be a boy in order to work in the host club and pay off a massive debt). Hana Kimi (she disguises herself as a boy in order to attend an all male school and be close to her idol). Of course, it's an extremely popular trope in Asian tv dramas, too, though some are more realistic than others (Coffee Prince is probably one of the best). In Anime it seems to be a mix of boys disguised as girls or vice versa while the dramas are usually girls disguised as boys - but not always (Ma Boy is about a guy who also doubles as a female CF star). I wonder if any Hebrew tried to disguise their sons as daughters to circumvent Pharaoh's edict? And the same when Herod decreed the death of the male babies Jews in Bethlehem? |
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| Author: | BarelyAPrincess [ December 10th, 2016, 10:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Looking for historical figures |
@Mistress Kidh: Wow, that was a mouthful but very inspiring. I should definitely research all those examples. Thank you. @Lady Sparks: I'm aware it's a very common trope in Anime and that's why anything more specific to my story might be of interest. In Anime more recently there is also the concept of a "trap," which means a character that appears to be female but in reality is male. Anyways, I'd be very interested in hearing stories of cross-dressing in Jewish culture, specially since most Jews actually don't see cross-dressing as being sin, contrary to the common western Christian belief. They even cross-dress for the festival of Purim. |
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