One other problem I have is that some people choose usernames to go with the theme of the genre of the forums. So it would ruin that, not only for members, but also for the forum. I know we asked someone on Sci Fi to change their username once, to one that didn't sound like it was for the Fantasy forum. It would ruin that. A single chat for all forums would be good, I'm just not too keen on the idea of one username across all the forums.

I still don't quite understand this:

I'm not sure I like this... I'm not sure the pros outweigh the cons... Plus, having all the Fantasy members on Sci-fi... I don't know. I'm not sure 400 members on Sci-fi appeals to me, when only about 100 want to be on Sci-fi. That messes some things up. I like being able to look at how the different forums grow at different rates. In fact, a couple weeks ago all of us HWHF members were comparing notes on how the Historical Fiction side has grown. If all the members are across all the boards, we can't do that. To me that just seems sad. It... in a way eliminates some of the individuality of the forums....

I’m still thinking about it, but I’m not sure it is appealing to me at the moment. I can see why it works for forums; I’m just not sure it is optimal for our forum…

Also, how would this affect ranks?

Andrew, can you please make it so we can change our vote if we want to?

I was wondering about the ranks as well, Airi.

Just because they're registered doesn't mean we'd automatically have that many members over there. Participation wouldn't change much. Again, like Script Frenzy. Nanowrimo is a huge event, but very few people actually participate in Script Frenzy. Just because people don't have to sign up again doesn't mean they automatically participate...

We actually were playing with a unified chat once... it matched the homepage theme.

The advantage to a unified chat is clear. With more than one no one ever knows which one to choose. So regardless of participation or member numbers no one is ever going to know which one to choose... so a single chat room makes sense.

I believe that Andrew said ranks could be customized; as could signatures, avatars, etc.

That bit about usernames is a con. Which is why I wanted to do this waaaaaay back before the SF forum existed... but we didn't know how to do that then. We do now, but we have to make a choice. Which is why we decided to open it up for voting... because ultimately it's the users who know what they want.

Once it's done... we will never confuse you with making the choice again.

Elanor, what this means is I don't think posts would transfer over to the new, single account. I believe they'd still be credited to the old accounts, which would be confusing. However, I think this can be cleared up, though I'd have to dig into it some more.

As to usernames...yes. They would be all the same. However, some people have already moved to the same name across all three forums anyways, since multiples names is confusing (for me at least). And there's still the signature and avatar which can be completely unique.

Kaitlyn, I think that if we were talking about the forums and only the forums the cons would outweigh the pros. But as HW expands we'll be moving into different areas, and having a single account would be really helpful.

Ranks and permissions will be completely separate by forum. A user can be an ML on fantasy and a registered user on HF, or an Admiral on Sci-Fi but an HRM. here on Fantasy. That will not change

The growth rates is definitely a concern, and that is something that would be lost, I admit.

Andrew

I realize that, the problem is, you lose the documentation of growth rate, which would be terrible for us to lose, in my opinion. We've always been big into our statistics, documenting forum growth, and all the other changes of HW. It's, in essence, part of the HW heritage. To lose that...

A unified chat would be awesome, but that can be done without linking everything, I believe.



I'm confused by that statement.



Yes, HW will continue to grow, but I don't want to see us lose our heritage in the process. Plus... I'm not sure this is a move that should be made without Jay, to be honest. Talk is one thing, but action of this magnitude should be done with Jay. Not because he needs to do it, but because he needs to be able to weigh the pros and cons and add his two cents after having seen the discussion.

Thank you, Brendan.

Yes, that is what is really putting me off this. It is an easy way to have access to everything, but it would ruin all the stats of each individual forum which, in my opinion, is an important thing to keep. Is the 'easy thing to do' the best thing for the forums indivudually? I don't think so.

Yes, that is my concern too, Elanor.

Andrew, would it be possible to keep track of how often users actually visited the different forums? And only count people who've turned up the last six months as "active"? That would take care of the active question...

What about an "activate" account thing? Where you register for an account on Fantasy, but you don't get counted by SF at all until you set up your profile? (I know I'm steering into complicated waters here but... hypothetically? )

Hypothetically....yes. Actually? I don't know. I think we could still definitely use unique visitors (which Google Analaytics can and does track) as a simple way to measure the statistics. It wouldn't count all 'registered users' at that specific forum but would count actual activity, which might be a more useful stat, even.

I'm a little bit confused as to how statistics are a part of HW's heritage, however. After all, they're just numbers - fun to look at maybe, but they don't have much of an effect on what actually goes on in the forums, which is what's most important.

Though I do agree with you about Jay, Kaitlyn. This is a pretty big thing to step in to, and we want to be within his plans for HW as well.

Andrew

It is very easy to combine the chats, and add a new one for Historical Fiction. It'll just be a matter of re-theme-ing the chat to something non-sci-fi, historical, or fantasy, then create links in every site that lead to the one chat.

But the stats do have an effect on how the forums are each handled, including the blog etc. You know what I mean? Airi has been keeping an eye on the stats of the blog, and has changed how it is run. It's important to be able to see how it's improving, if it needs more work and so on. Same with the forums. I like to see how the HF side is growing, if we need to try and boost members. On Sci Fi we realise we need to try to build up our numbers. If you try something to boost those numbers, then you can't see if it's working or not, if the stats have disappeared. I think seeing how much traffic each forum gets is important individually.

We like to see who is posting where most. I think that's important when you're selecting Mods, HRM and so on. You want to see where they're active, how active they are on the individual forums, not just all forums; that really wouldn't help there.

I don't know if the change would affect all that? But just some thoughts. I hope I'm ok throwing these out there. Those are some reasons why losing the stats would worry me. Stats are not just something fun to look at, I don't think; that's not why I'm worried about them disappearing.

What he's saying is that those stats would stay the same, Elanor. Instead of tracking it by counting users, which is rather inaccurate, we could use another system entirely which would give us real and helpful data.

As for Jay... yeah. We're in no position to actually implement this right now. I think we're talking about it as a summer project. But we do need to decide, so that we can make plans for actually doing it. If Jay remains incommunicando after we've reached a decision and are ready to begin I can personally compile a 25 page treatise listing every objection and solution and detailing what we'll do and he can reply with a simple "go" or "stop." We will get his approval to enact this, but we don't need his permission to discuss it.

In other words... what Brendan said.

Aah ok. That would be great if it were possible!

I'm fine with doing it or not doing it. But I will point out that there is a disadvantage to merging the chats, actually. I know of at least a few times when people have moved to the Sci-Fi chat because it's mostly empty.

What about being able to alter all three accounts from any forum?

I agree with Elanor. I use the stats for all different kinds of reasons. So does Jay, in fact. I remember talking to him about it. IT’s not just for fun. For example, a bunch of us on HWHF figured out that HF had grown approximately by 10 members a week for the first 10 weeks it was up. That’s more than double how fast HWSF grew. If we merged members, we would no longer have that kind of info.

That is part of the HW heritage, among other things.

Brendan… that idea sounded very confusing. O.O

And others posted while I was writing.

@Arien: We've kicked around before having a unified chat room with individual "rooms" for each forum. If we were to create a new chat, that'd be a feature we want to include

@Jay: You should be able to change your user/pass on any of the three forums and it'd change for all of them

Andrew

It's actually quite a bit tougher than that. Without merging the forums, it's impossible to merge the chats without compromises we didn't want to make.

I'm sorry I have so many questions, but here's another one.

I get this occasionally:




I've just been getting it now, when I try to post, I know other people get it too when we're busy. Jay said it was just because there was a lot of users on and the site gets overloaded and plays up a little. Would the linking all the sites up really mess with how slow and fast each site is? If that makes sense. Would it be overloaded all the time?

I'm a little on the confused side. *goes back to re-read posts and try to understand more*

Kaitlyn/Elanor, the only forum statistics which will be affected by this change would be number of users. Numbers of topics/posts/ all of those statistics will remain unchanged. An individual's particular activity on a single forum will not be available, but activity on the forum as a whole will still be available.

If number of users is an important statistic, then Google Analytics can provide that, as I said

Andrew

That is an interesting point, Elanor, because I've been getting this a bit more frequently, too... *is curious *

How active people are on individual forums is important though, don't you think?

You should still be able to compute time-since-last post, and from there count the users that have posted in the past 30 days or something.

@Kaitlyn: The max_users error is by individual calls to the server - all three forums contribute to it, and merging the logins would not affect it. It's only becoming more frequent as HW grows and more people are online at a time. Actually, there is a solution for that problem which I hope to code this summer

But...that's not a statistic that needs to be quantified, is it? I mean, does it benefit me to know that I post 6.5 posts per day on Fantasy but only 3.4 on Historical?

@Elly: I'm sorry it's confusing I wish I could make it easier to understand

Andrew

Not you, but it benefits people who want to keep an eye on how active people are. *Watches Andrew carefully*

Aah, thanks for explaining that. I thought it might be per forum, but if it's not then that doesn't matter.

That's okay, Andrew. I think I've got it now... or the gist of it, anyway.

One quick question, though... would the post count reflect on all three forums, or be specific to each forum?

Yeah... and that's what gets me. I look at forum activity. Some of my HRM on Fantasy would be promoted to HRM on Sci-Fi in an instant, if they were active. But while they are members of HWSF, they are not active. Losing activity level stats on the individual forums would lose that type of info.

It would merge all post counts, I believe.

That's true. Checking up on activity levels for possible promotions would be much, much harder.

@Elly: I've looked into it, and I'm fairly sure the post counts would be separate, but until I can test it, I can't say for certain.

@Kaitlyn: I'm not entirely sure, like I said to Elly, but it's probable that if the post counts are separate the statistics will still function

Andrew

If they were separate then that would fix that problem.

Okay, thanks for answering my question.

Then I cannot either support or oppose the idea until I know these things. They are all very important to HW as a whole. Is there any way to find out for certain, without altering the forum?

Also, as to the old user names being attributed... can't everyone change their names to what their one name would be, thus making all posts be attributed to that user when the names would merge?

@Kaitlyn: The reason I posted this without knowing these things for sure is because setting up three test forums and actually testing this inside and out would require a significant amount of work. I wanted to gauge the reactions of average HWers before going to that work, which is why I don't have anything more concrete. In the next week or two I will endeavour to return with a list of exactly what will and will not be merged.

That is a good idea and possible, I believe

Andrew

This topic has been split off from the voting for clarity of discussion.

Everyone, I begin to note a hint of panic in your responses. Please note: we have talked about this for two solid years. It is not a new, radical thing. Also note that we're not implementing it without solving the problems. All your concerns will be addressed.

But we will not ask our tech team to spend weeks of work only to have the entire idea thrown out of the question.

The purpose of this poll is not to do this next week with or without approval. The purpose of this thread was to find out: Would you, the members of HW, enjoy having one login for three forums, the Art Gallery, and multiple blogs, rather than having to register separately every time HW expands, or get a Fantasy account in order to access some features?

*nods * I would like to see how it works and iron out all the bugs. If we do not have the cons of which you spoke and Elanor and I have voiced, then there is no reason not to, provided Jay agrees.

She means, calm down and eat a cupcake.

I am not panicked, nor do I think Elanor or Elly are. We are asking questions that challenge the idea to either show the faults in it, or make it a better, stronger plan once the wrinkles are ironed out.

I just came across this idea and tried to absorb all the discussion so far in one reading, so forgive me if I mention something that has already been said and/or addressed.

I think this would be ideal if Holy Worlds can be like a tree: HW is the trunk, and everyone has to sign into that before they can join anything else. Once they join that, they can also join each branch (the forums, the blog, etc.), and the information in each branch will not overlap, because it is separate from the trunk. Once you have joined each one that you wish, it signs you into all you are a part of at once, but the information for each place is kept only in that specific branch of HW. Thus a person could be a member of HW as a whole and HWHF without being a member of HWSF or HWF or the blog, and alternately a person could be a member of HW as a whole and all the forums and the blog. Is that possible?

I voted 'No' on the poll.

Why? I like the three forums the way they are. Like Airi said (somewhere in this thread) I'm not keen on 400 members on SF and HF. I love having the smaller communities. Yes, the three forums are not perfectly united, but that is part of what makes them unique. Each has their own unique things on the different forums, and it helps keep the genres a little bit separate. Each forum is unique for its own needs. Each forum has different needs. I think merging them would take away from that and have a negative impact on SF and HF.

I think this would also have a negative effect on those with only an account on one forum. People like the other sides of HW because they are quiet. I completely agree. Fantasy is wonderful, but it is also a huge, busy, and perhaps even a little scary and intimidating place for some of us introverted writers. The other two are nice and peaceful in comparison, and people like this. I do.

On another note, if you are going to do this, please, please, please, please don't merge the chats. Sci-fi may be quiet, but that makes it a peaceful haven for those who like to sometimes gather there in the evenings and have a more peaceful conversation with just a few individuals, not 8 or even 12 people like the way fantasy chat can get busy. I know I go silent in a full chat room, and frequently grab a few others and head to SF chat (And I'm pretty sure I am not the only one).

Basically, I am voting no for the reasons stated above, and more reasons that I cannot seem to gather into intelligent thoughts right now. I like things the way they are.

(Oh, and what Jonathan said, since he posted while I was typing, seems to make sense. I am perfectly happy with the forums as they are now, though.)

It seems like there might be a need to have a chat for each forum and a chat that was connected to all forums.

I am not panicked at all. This is a big idea, and there are bound to be concerns, or thoughts to be given. I'm just trying to help think of different ideas that need to be smoothed out.

Please note: I did not say anyone was panicked. I said I thought I noticed a hint of panic beginning to creep into ya'll's overall tone. It was intended to reassure and express my understanding; not to come across as accusing.

What about Google? Most of you have a google account, or are familiar with them. You get a google account, but you still have to register for each different aspect. You don't have a different login for each, though... you use the same information for gmail, youtube, G+, wave, docs, etc, etc.

That's what we want. One login, everything tied together... but if we could have some kind of activation system that would still keep things seperate... is that what you're saying?

(Grammar fail.)

You didn't come across as accusing at all, Vanya. I just was worried I was sounding all het up, when I wasn't trying to, so sorry if I sounded like I was saying you were!




Yes, that would be perfect! If it would be possible.

Yes, my idea is similar to Google, and an activation system that kept things separate would be ideal.

I was just stating, like Elanor, that I was not at all panicked. Besides, I know nothing can be done at the moment, so there is no need to panic.



Yes exactly. Like Jonathan said, a tree. It all being attached would be good. However, I still want to see the forums having their own identity and I do not want to lose all my stats for the individual blogs.

I really do not like the idea, how would we tell people apart?!